Magic Genre

[Wan]

We havent had a good discussion in ages. So I figure why not talk about magic in general. First order of business is what exactly is magic?

Magic Defintion (clicky the link!)

Magic can be something that people cannot explain or a phenomena. It doesnt actually mean its magic, rather something they call it because they cant explain what it is.

Magic in gaming is basically a 1 thinker solution. Meaning (we need something to cure....BOOM cure spell).

In movies, Magic is more protrayed through effects and words we can hardly pronounce. More so its found morely in European/American films, such as Harry Potter.

In card games magic is a quick fix as well as a tool to shape they game. In Magic The Gathering for instance, you can have a deck of nothing but magic cards and still win. In Yu-Gi-Oh however your magic, trap and monster cards need to be at a balance for a successful battle.

But enough of what I say, is magic over powering? If so prove your point

Let the debate begin!

[Umbra]

Magic can be good if its integral to the story, if its just some story about a guy and a girl or a group of friends going on an adventure, and they happen to throw some magic into the mix then I disagree with that.

I also dislike a story in which magic is used as a sort of 'utility belt', meaning that the hero pulls out some previously unknown spell and saves the day. That just seems cheap and defeats the purpose of a story.

However, if magic can be used in an interesting way, or cause the conflict within a story, then I think it can work. Magic must also have limitations and these must be explained within the context of the story; simple rules such as magic can neither add nor take away something.

In videogames or card games, magic is pretty much a necessary thing, as it allows the game to contain abilities such as that of reviving someone or curing someone's ailments quickly. Without magic, its very difficult to legitimately keep these abilities, which have become a necessity. The only exception would be if the game was set in a futuristic landscape.

[Wan]

Magic can be good if its integral to the story, if its just some story about a guy and a girl or a group of friends going on an adventure, and they happen to throw some magic into the mix then I disagree with that.

Unless its part of the story, I dont see why pulling spells out of thin air would be a problem (unless its over powered).

I also dislike a story in which magic is used as a sort of 'utility belt', meaning that the hero pulls out some previously unknown spell and saves the day. That just seems cheap and defeats the purpose of a story.

Im the same on this coin. Unless that spell has had some history prior to its usuage, whats the point of it? More importantly if its so good why wasnt it used from the get go?

However, if magic can be used in an interesting way, or cause the conflict within a story, then I think it can work. Magic must also have limitations and these must be explained within the context of the story; simple rules such as magic can neither add nor take away something.

Its hard to place magic in an interesting place without a ground base. Like all magic came from this "so and so" spot/God/Whatever.

In videogames or card games, magic is pretty much a necessary thing, as it allows the game to contain abilities such as that of reviving someone or curing someone's ailments quickly. Without magic, its very difficult to legitimately keep these abilities, which have become a necessity. The only exception would be if the game was set in a futuristic landscape.

Indeed, has anyone here ever played a magic based card game without the magic?

However describing something so futuristic is another side of magic, in that the technologies of that nature are beyond our understanding. So in essence, high end technology can be looked at as being magical. Since they are made solely by technological imagination.

But then isnt that what magic is? Pure imagination?

[Fallen Guardion]

On the topic of technology and magic, think about this:

Arthur C. Clarke formulated the following three "laws" of prediction:

When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Thus, advanced technology would be "magic" to those not acquainted with it. Like when a person goes back in time in a novel or movie, then uses a lighter.
The people think it's magic because to them it is fantastic and "impossible" otherwise.

But on topic, magic has its uses in games/movies/etc. IF it makes sense for the area it's in.
Simply pulling it out of nowhere for no reason as a cureall ( or Gwad forbid a "Deus Ex Machina") then it becomes tired and pointless. I like it to have a purpose to the storyline.
Even more so, I prefer it to have limitations. If it "always" saves the day, comes from nowhere it makes no sense. (see previous gripe )

Offtopic: If you want a good way to blend tech and magic, play Star Ocean.

[Kouen]

Well I like magic if it has a background story behind it and not some random thing thrown in to save the main character's butt. Such as Character A trains for years and is able to use moderate elemental spells. As opposed to Character B spending all his years training swordsmanship and out of the blue he is able to use high level elemental spells.

[Fallen Guardion]

Well I like magic if it has a background story behind it and not some random thing thrown in to save the main character's butt. Such as Character A trains for years and is able to use moderate elemental spells. As opposed to Character B spending all his years training swordsmanship and out of the blue he is able to use high level elemental spells.

Totally agree Kouen.

It gets rediculous when someone gets to instantly trump an accomplished mage/sorceror/whatnot simply because they have a "Character Shield".
I also like them to at least offer some sort (even if it is brief) explanation as to how and why they have and can use their abilities.

I despise main characters that simply get to have their power because they are the main character.
It makes the stories of the other characters that work for it seem downplayed.
Just like I hate a main character that always wins.
Gawd I hate "Character Shields"

[T'Orlyn]

As a sci-fi fangirl I can safely say that you can have an incredible story-line that has nothing to do with magic. True, two of my favorite series, the X-files and Stargate do get pretty magical after a while; however, my long-time sci-fi favorite, Star Trek, pretty much stays away from it. During the making of the Origional Series (TOS) they made very sure to define that there is a difference between science-fiction and fantasy...which a lot of other shows do not. The difference between science and magic is...that, especially in shows like Trek...everything does have a serious scientific basis. They don't just make things up like "omgz we're travleing at 11 times the speed of light lolz!" (According to quantum physics, travleing at 10 times the speed of light is infinite velocity in which the traveler would be everywhere in the universe simultaneously and therefore, impossible) Pretty much everything is based on facts, not fiction..and despite Roddenberry's rather rosey view of the future, it is plausible for most everything (not all...they have relapses at some points) that happens in those shows to occur. They normally don't defy any rules of temporal mechanics, quantum physics, thermodynamics or any other basic governing law of the universe..like magic does.


When it comes to novels, I'll read just about anything from victorian romance to science journals. I'll admit that magic does add something to the plotline, but, for me, futuristic science-fiction has the same effect.

Anime and Manga are weighed down too heavily with magic for me a lot of the time... when you're looking for romance, it's hard to find a "slice-of-life" or a shoujou that's not riddled with angst and when you're looking for sci-fi, it's hard not to find one that's filled with magical fighting robots...which is one of the reasons I started drifting from anime several years ago.

[Fallen Guardion]

Just for comfirmation:

In the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Where No One Has Gone Before", an engineer compares an advanced alien's technology as "You're asking us to believe in magic." The alien (known only as "Traveler") replies, "Yes, I guess from your perspective it does seem like magic." Picard is enlightened.

Technology is no different from magic to those who don't know it.
There are many times in Star Trek that the encounter "underdeveloped"
planets where there Tech would be considered as such.

Thus, in a way, Star Trek, and all Tech shows, are about Magic!

[T'Orlyn]

Well... not really, only what appears to be magic to those less developed scientifically.
The key words from that quote are "from your prespective'" and "seem like."

They deal a lot with that on Stargate SG-1, since a majority of the planets they visit are inhabited by the descendants of ancient Earth cultures, but it does show that it only appears to be magic from a certain perspective. Since the main characters use weapons and technology (for the most part) that is familiar to us, it only would see like magic to the races stuck back in the dark ages. Then, in comparison races like the Tollen or the Asgaurd who are at a much higher stage of technological development stop seemingly magical and we are forced to look at them only as technologically advanced. The way the primitive peoples see our technology and the way that the characters and the viewers see the Tok'ra's or the Nox's are parallels of each other that remind us that it's only science.


Also, like I said, there are exceptions and sometimes they have relapses, that particular episode of TNG is one of them. The addition of the Q continum is another.


Stargate is also..at the same time, a bad example, since later on they get involved with the ancients who are all... ascended "one with mother nature" sort of things and it stops being science and starts being magic.

I dunno..I just think there's a big difference between J.K.Rowling and Isaac Assimov XD
But maybe it's just me

[Fallen Guardion]

Well... not really, only what appears to be magic to those less developed scientifically.
The key words from that quote are "from your prespective'" and "seem like."

I think you missed my point.

"Magic" is a subjective word, like almost everything else in this world.
It is not simply "mystical forces", but as Clarke's Law says,
any significatnly advanced technology is indistinuisgable from magic.
It is something that people use to explain what they cannot normally.

That is my point. Anything can be concidered magic, even Star Trek.
In fact Stargate, they use Clarke's Law often.

Haha, either way, it doesn't matter.
I think I like you T'Orlyn. (not that way )

[Wan]

Seeing as how magic is used to heal, buff, debuff, nuke, enfeeble, transport or even bring about, what else has it done?