Umineko

[(Phantom) Thief]

When They Cry 3: Umineko

For anyone who wanted to know Umineko is a visual sound novel. The story is a murder mystery that revolves around the events occurring between October 4th & October 5th 1986. The concept is proving whether the events were done by a supernatural force or by human means. Its more complicated than I've explained. There is also an anime. Please discuss.

http://witch-hunt.com/ (Patch)
http://www.07th-expansion.net/umi/soft/umi_taiken_r.htm (Demo)
http://www.himeyashop.com/advanced_sear ... ds=umineko (Purchase)

Information - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni

[AuraTwilight]

The anime adaptation SUCKS.

This isn't even a subject of opinion. They butchered it to bits and made the mystery completely unsolvable for people who don't read the Visual Novel.

The Visual Novel, which imo, is the best thing ever, and is currently my favorite thing in the world, even more than .hack. To the point that I've considered changing my screenname to Beatrice or something.

[Ratsu]

Oh! AT I didn't know you read it too? Can you explain something to me then? The witch that looks like Rika, from what I understand it IS Rika, and its not. Can you shine some light on that?

[nobodyknows]

EVERYTHING IS THE FAULT OF THE SMALL BOMBS

Also, Beatrice is the biggest troll on the planet.

[AuraTwilight]

Oh! AT I didn't know you read it too? Can you explain something to me then? The witch that looks like Rika, from what I understand it IS Rika, and its not. Can you shine some light on that?

If you came into the series after watching the Higurashi anime, it's not your fault you're confused.

In the Higurashi Visual Novels, the chapters were interspersed with the poetry and thoughts of a character named Frederica Bernkastel, who claimed she was trapped like Rika, but was not Rika.

In the end, it becomes clear that when Rika was world-hopping, it wasn't exactly time travel, or her soul just hopping from body to body. More that her mind was "overwriting" the Rika that existed in that world. The mind of every Rika that got killed collected together in the space between kakera (worlds), and their memories were written into a new Rika. Those different Rika-selves merged together...into Frederica Bernkastel, who was aware of everything Rika knew, but was unable to act.

In the end, Rika Furude defeats the eternal june and gets to go into her future, throwing away her connection to Frederica Bernkastel. Frederica Bernkastel, by the way, is the "adult Rika" that made a world where Miyo Takano kept her family, by the way (and eventually became the world Rika was stuck in in Rei). The adult appearance is incorrect, she should've looked more like Bernkastel from Umineko.

When Rika cast off her connection to Frederica Bernkastel, she likewise dropped her connection to Rika, droppering the Frederica from her name. Without Rika's support, she no longer had a connection to the human world, becoming like a witch. She was the monument built to every unsaved Rika, and was forced to stay in the darkness between the worlds. She gained power, but lost passion.

[AuraTwilight]

Watched the anime - It made perfect sense. Anyone who didn't get it is a ***** retard.

Alright then. I'd like for you to explain to me what you believe happened (in spoilers and such of course). I'll explain to you why the anime has misled you.

And are you the **** who voted "No?"

[TheSorrow]

I've finished watching the Umineko anime, and i've been stuffing myself with information directly from the Visual Novels, with the help of a certain someone...i don't read the VN myself since i hate them and the drawings have been freaking horrible since Higurashi (i'd much rather just read a book with no sounds or images than those...and i hate reading books anyhow XP lol). And for me, the anime adaptation doesn't suck and actually follows the novels as best as it could (better than Higurashi at least). Sure, they took out many "bits" of information and stuff, but the idea was left clear anyhow, and i don't mean the idea Zer0 mentioned. I'll talk in spoilers now just in case.

 Sure, at first, the anime makes you believe that Battler was pulled into the meta-world-thing in order to compete with Beatrice in a game where Battler needs to either prove each and every event happens with "physical" means and nothing that occurs is magic; prove that all the murders were commited by people and with stuff like guns or their bare hands rather than by witches and flying cakes. However, even though that might be the objective of the game itself, Beatrice's goal was actually another, to let Battler know something. That's the idea you're given by the last episodes (with the thingy Beato asks involving Battler's real mother), and it's further proven in EP5 and 6, where Battler learns the truth, whatever it is, and then the goal switches to now proving that truth. There's also the objective of Bernkitty and LambdaIotaAlphaPi, but that escapes me other than boredom and that Logic Error crap. Poor Battler BTW.

And no, the anime DOES tell you, albeit not directly, that Beatrice IS lying about what she's showing Battler, and nearly 90% or more about the events shown are events "prettied up with magic" by Beato. Don't you think that, if all those events happened the way it's shown, it would be alot easier to simply say "Rudolf and Kyrie were killed by the Siesta Sisters" in red text? Or why they NEVER say anything in red text that would prove witches or magic? I mean, where were you when Virgilia made the whole cathode-ray tube explanation? D8 Given there are no witnesses, nothing to give a certain proof of the events happening, anyone can say Kratos came and killed everyone while looking for Dante, and anyone will believe you if you give enough detail of how Kratos did so...or at least, they would be unable to deny it until they prove how each and every thing happened without Kratos being there. As i watched the anime, i always thought the point of the "game" was for Battler to be able to see "beyond the magic", and judge the events, prove the "realism" of the murders, by the final state of the bodies and the conditions they were placed on, the only thing that can be "proven to be real". Magic is a very ambiguous term in Umineko and can be given alot of meanings...but, i'm sure even Umineko agrees that one "purpose" of magic is to alter reality in a means where you can make a whole fantasy out of a certain event, with an end result that can be proven by realistic means (this is why Ange couldn't "use magic" in a full classroom with no means of a murder occuring as she just stayed there...but also why magic can exist so greatly in an isolated island where a certain event occurs that leaves almost everyone dead). But in the end, it wasn't magic the one that caused those events to happen. Maybe i'm just going in circles here, but to shorten it up...magic and witches might or might not exist, but regardless of that, the events in that island did not happen because of magic, and none of the murders occured thanks to magic or witches.

And yeah, it's most likely Eva isn't the culprit (though she might've aided even if unwillingly...it's quite likely there was a "mindmaster" and 2-3 accomplices) and OF COURSE the anime also lets you know that...sure, it confuses you, but it also gives you enough clues to believe she wasn't and she just snapped at a point (and somehow was the only survivor...but i have my other bunch of theories on that). Sure, you can't solve the mystery by just watching the anime, but at this current point, you can't solve the mystery by the Visual Novel either, unless you're a smartass bastard or something like that. And hell, this is the "When They Cry" series we're talking about!! D8 Anyone who watched Higurashi should know that the first season is like the "question" part, all creepy and mindf*cking, with many things that can't be assumed as "fact", and it is until the second season that you start seeing how things REALLY happened...so, it's until Chiru, both for the anime and VN, that things start making sense and you can actually see the real incidents and solve the mystery. Until then, assuming this first season with everything as a fact and believing everything you see is a dumb move for a series like this.

So...i'm done 8D Sure enough, i'll admit the VN has obviously alot more content and describes things alot better, while the anime shortened them up as much as it could to fit it all in 26 20-min episodes, but i wouldn't say they butchered it up or make things completely ununderstandable, since i was able to know all of what i said before going to the VN, and the VN only backed things up. Yes, the anime made it more creepy and less mysterious, but that's just eye-catching, and they actually made it less creepy ALOT more complex than Higurashi, and Higurashi was indeed the one butchered up in the anime version, ignoring a whole character to the very end. Maybe i'm missing things up and maybe the anime has indeed misguided me in some parts, if so, i'd like to know just how am i wrong and how is it really then, but...subject of opinion or not, the anime was great.

[AuraTwilight]

 Sure, at first, the anime makes you believe that Battler was pulled into the meta-world-thing in order to compete with Beatrice in a game where Battler needs to either prove each and every event happens with "physical" means and nothing that occurs is magic; prove that all the murders were commited by people and with stuff like guns or their bare hands rather than by witches and flying cakes. However, even though that might be the objective of the game itself, Beatrice's goal was actually another, to let Battler know something. That's the idea you're given by the last episodes (with the thingy Beato asks involving Battler's real mother), and it's further proven in EP5 and 6, where Battler learns the truth, whatever it is, and then the goal switches to now proving that truth. There's also the objective of Bernkitty and LambdaIotaAlphaPi, but that escapes me other than boredom and that Logic Error crap. Poor Battler BTW.

 The Logic Error think was Erika being an extremely poor sport intent on breaking Battler. Bernkastel wants to find the Truth too, but without Love, it Cannot Be Seen. However, Magic is also seen with Love, and it's like a white lie that covers up the parts best left unseen. So Bernkastel's so much not so much concerned over finding the killer so much as breaking the honor of the entire family and exposing them as evil assholes, whether or not this is actually true. Lambdadelta already knows the Truth, and she's supporting both sides to keep the Truth from ever being discovered so the Game will last an eternity.

 And no, the anime DOES tell you, albeit not directly, that Beatrice IS lying about what she's showing Battler, and nearly 90% or more about the events shown are events "prettied up with magic" by Beato. Don't you think that, if all those events happened the way it's shown, it would be alot easier to simply say "Rudolf and Kyrie were killed by the Siesta Sisters" in red text? Or why they NEVER say anything in red text that would prove witches or magic? I mean, where were you when Virgilia made the whole cathode-ray tube explanation? D8 Given there are no witnesses, nothing to give a certain proof of the events happening, anyone can say Kratos came and killed everyone while looking for Dante, and anyone will believe you if you give enough detail of how Kratos did so...or at least, they would be unable to deny it until they prove how each and every thing happened without Kratos being there. As i watched the anime, i always thought the point of the "game" was for Battler to be able to see "beyond the magic", and judge the events, prove the "realism" of the murders, by the final state of the bodies and the conditions they were placed on, the only thing that can be "proven to be real". Magic is a very ambiguous term in Umineko and can be given alot of meanings...but, i'm sure even Umineko agrees that one "purpose" of magic is to alter reality in a means where you can make a whole fantasy out of a certain event, with an end result that can be proven by realistic means (this is why Ange couldn't "use magic" in a full classroom with no means of a murder occuring as she just stayed there...but also why magic can exist so greatly in an isolated island where a certain event occurs that leaves almost everyone dead). But in the end, it wasn't magic the one that caused those events to happen. Maybe i'm just going in circles here, but to shorten it up...magic and witches might or might not exist, but regardless of that, the events in that island did not happen because of magic, and none of the murders occured thanks to magic or witches.

 While you're kind of right, the anime failed to explain that the Red isn't allowed to comment on the existence of Magic, because then there would be no Game. If Beatrice just said "There's magic/no such thing as magic", then it comes to a stalemate because no more moves can be made.

Also, EP6 confirms that magic doesn't exist. "You can't do anything with magic you couldn't do normally." Basically, it's trickery. But whether that trickery is malicious, or out of love, determines what color magic it is.

 And yeah, it's most likely Eva isn't the culprit (though she might've aided even if unwillingly...it's quite likely there was a "mindmaster" and 2-3 accomplices) and OF COURSE the anime also lets you know that...sure, it confuses you, but it also gives you enough clues to believe she wasn't and she just snapped at a point (and somehow was the only survivor...but i have my other bunch of theories on that). Sure, you can't solve the mystery by just watching the anime, but at this current point, you can't solve the mystery by the Visual Novel either, unless you're a smartass bastard or something like that. And hell, this is the "When They Cry" series we're talking about!! D8 Anyone who watched Higurashi should know that the first season is like the "question" part, all creepy and mindf*cking, with many things that can't be assumed as "fact", and it is until the second season that you start seeing how things REALLY happened...so, it's until Chiru, both for the anime and VN, that things start making sense and you can actually see the real incidents and solve the mystery. Until then, assuming this first season with everything as a fact and believing everything you see is a dumb move for a series like this.

Word of God says you can solve all the mysteries with only the first four Episodes of the VN; the rest just make it easier to do so. The anime, however, fails in this by leaving out multiple Red Truths, or scenes that disproved Fantasy Scenes and whatnot.

And...no, you can't compare Higurashi and Umineko in that respect. Umineko wasn't "creepy and mindfucky" in the same way Higurashi was. It's effectively a detective novel, and the anime made it into a horror show like Higurashi was. Atmosphere fail.

So...i'm done 8D Sure enough, i'll admit the VN has obviously alot more content and describes things alot better, while the anime shortened them up as much as it could to fit it all in 26 20-min episodes, but i wouldn't say they butchered it up or make things completely ununderstandable, since i was able to know all of what i said before going to the VN, and the VN only backed things up. Yes, the anime made it more creepy and less mysterious, but that's just eye-catching, and they actually made it less creepy ALOT more complex than Higurashi, and Higurashi was indeed the one butchered up in the anime version, ignoring a whole character to the very end. Maybe i'm missing things up and maybe the anime has indeed misguided me in some parts, if so, i'd like to know just how am i wrong and how is it really then, but...subject of opinion or not, the anime was great.

Well, for one, the characters of Maria, Rosa, Beatrice, Battler, and Bernkastel are all butchered to the point of being flanderized and made out of character in the anime, to the point of being outright silly. For instance, Maria being like...f@cking demon-possessed in the anime.

[(Phantom) Thief]

PS3 Remake:

[S1lentOp]

I can't imagine why they would remake this poor excuse for a game. The characters are two dimensional and the story is something out of a high school composition book some fangirl scribbled in for a few weeks before throwing it on her deviant art account and saying it gives her terrible drawings new life. While the game is longer, the anime is far superior both in design and execution. It keeps out the meaningless details that cluttered the narrative of the visual novel and the animation alone at least made the swill tolerable. Even fan fictions can sometimes be coherent but this chaotic scramble of words just seems to throw in random nonsense whenever it's convenient or senses that it's run out of idea for where to take a thread of the story. Have a problem? We've got a mythical creature to draw in conveniently to explain it. The sour icing on this putrescent nauseating abomination is the gratuitous fanservice. Between the hordes of loli characters and the bunny girls it's like this show reaches for new lows to appeal to the lowest common denominator of its potential fanbase.

[(Phantom) Thief]

I can't imagine why they would remake this poor excuse for a game. The characters are two dimensional and the story is something out of a high school composition book some fangirl scribbled in for a few weeks before throwing it on her deviant art account and saying it gives her terrible drawings new life. While the game is longer, the anime is far superior both in design and execution. It keeps out the meaningless details that cluttered the narrative of the visual novel and the animation alone at least made the swill tolerable. Even fan fictions can sometimes be coherent but this chaotic scramble of words just seems to throw in random nonsense whenever it's convenient or senses that it's run out of idea for where to take a thread of the story. Have a problem? We've got a mythical creature to draw in conveniently to explain it. The sour icing on this putrescent nauseating abomination is the gratuitous fanservice. Between the hordes of loli characters and the bunny girls it's like this show reaches for new lows to appeal to the lowest common denominator of its potential fanbase.

It was popular. The series sold well and people enjoyed the content.

It was popular. The series sold well and people enjoyed the content.

The same could be said of the Twilight Saga. Are you going to defend Umineko by holding it up to Twilight's standards?

No however if there are community who enjoy a series, genre or entertainment. Then to some extent it usually has certain or concept philosophy that appeals to current generation. When it doesn't the series has a low rating and becomes canceled. I don't think you'd normally have to say it but everyone has their own interest. Let's take Hellsing, I know its not fair and I'm just choosing it because make a cool point but I've heard horrible things about the series including the comic, anime and ova: a blood filled tuneless vampire flick with a police chick, that sums up the story. When it was first created the comic had poor artwork, and from what I remember a slow story. But people stilled enjoyed it. I think the same applies to Ghost in The Shell if that's something more relative.

You skipped some words but I think it'll be fine. I want to move on watching spam is annoying. For those who wanted to know, Umineko no Naku Koro ni: Majo to Suiri no Rondo (When the Seagulls Cry: The Rondo of the Witch and Deduction) is a PS3 remake of the visual sound novel Umineko no Naku Koro ni by Ryukishi07. The game contains episodes 1 - 4 of the series with additional content, added visual information and soundtrack.

http://www.umine.co/

[S1lentOp]

Blaaaaaaaah

[TheSorrow]

I DIDN'T DO IT!!! THOSE 20-OR-SO-LATEST DELETION LOGS AREN'T MINE!!! I SWEAR!!! TT^TT
I was having fun pulling out epic YGO combos of 30,000LP damage to pass my Electronics exam in my 4th dream or so when the whole thing happened...at least based on the time of deletion. And lol, just from the amount of posts deleted, i can tell that some great and epic and definetly not-innocent discussion happened here. Too bad it was all deleted and there's no way for me to read what was in those posts D; I would've loved to read it, sitting here eating some popcorn as the discussion kept going rather than do my work as a Mod about it D8 lol (And i hate deleting posts anyhow, unless they're obvious spam/double post/etc)
Though i'd probably have been scolded by the one who deleted the posts, if i had been online all the time, just reading and enjoying .-. lol

And now it's beginning to look more like a direct/personal attack ._____. Seriously, WTF Complaint Department. One thing is to stop a spam/flame discussion and try to erase it...and another is to delete (no, modify) an user's post, a post meant to explain something about the deletions and the remaining posts, and had nothing bad or nothing wrong about it except maybe a MINOR insult which wasn't even one unless you made yourself feel it that way .-. Oh, and not only that, but lock it too so that the original member is unable to edit it back. Awesome, like a kid whose candy was stolen by another kid and wants revenge -3-

...
Anyways, back on topic after whatever genocide happened o3o

Umineko game for the PS3? I suppose it's going to be a Visual Novel just like the original, right? Well, i hate Visual Novels...but, one of the main reasons why i hated Umineko VN itself specifically was because of the horrible artwork. We have PS3 anime-style graphics here, reminding me alot of Naruto UNS 2, so that won't be a problem at all.
It's interesting me enough though, and IF it gets released here (who knows if they have a plan for releasing such VN in English D: i saw several VNs for the PS2, but they were ALL japanese-only), i'll most likely give it a try, either as a rent or after seeing enough gameplay footage and being convinced about it. I still dislike the whole idea of "playing" Visual Novels, but well, i just can't judge this game at all when all i've really seen is a 3D-ish anime intro. I'll stick with the anime if this game is boring enough to me though...and that'd be if it's indeed NOTHING but a book with motionless characters looking at the camera (and music and voice and minor stuff), not even fully animated scenes for certain events, or even more complex backgrounds, or ANYTHING D:
Oh, and this may be too much to ask for...but if the game comes with trophies, then i'll play it and feel obliged to get such trophies. I have NO IDEA what kind of trophies would be avaliable for such kind of game though o_O'

[AuraTwilight]

Apparently EP8 of the Visual Novel will have multiple endings, and thus some extent of choice-making and typical VN "gameplay." Discuss.

[Adhemas]

Pretty curious about episode 8. There is also Umineko Tsubasa which is some sort of tip collection (it actually contains 15-20 ministories like the ???? which have to be onlocked first). As far as I know they also announced a Umineko extra "Kai" VN like Higurashi Kai which is some kind of extra arc and Ryukishi said something about already working on the next "xy no naku koro ni" series. I think it would be cool to see some snow/mountain setting the next time - maybe about a small village (or a few people) which got cut off from the rest of the world due to a snow storm or something like that. Well - just a stereoype but - who knows, it was the same with the island. I just would like to know which sort of animal will cry this time.
Well, currently better trying to avoid spoilers about ep8, so I don't know that much about it yet.

[Tsuki-44]

THIS NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT OVER!!!! ...the PS3 version i mean. I read the demo from 07th expansion, and i was hooked right away. yeah, okay, the the art needs some improvement, but you really do grow attached to it after a while xD