Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship.

[Satu]

A lot of people sure like to debate about this subject. *sigh* At least one thread on it in every .hack forum. (And I promise that I'm going to say my opinion without referring to rumors of what .hack//ZERO and Analysis say. xD I've got Analysis, but I just can't read it. )

Like someone said in the beginning of the thread... I think that they're soulmates. They're meant to be together, but whether they're together in a romantic way or not doesn't matter.

Personally, I believe in reincarnation. To me, it's the soul that matters, not the body housing it. I don't think that souls necessarily have genders, but attributes that humans categorize into typically "male" or "female." Also, I think that a soul can find another soul that harmonizes with it (in a way). I guess you'd call that a "soulmate." (Also, I think that it's possible to have more than one soulmate.)

But romance is an entirely different matter. To me, romance is just physical attraction mixed in with some brain activity that we're programmed to have so our species doesn't die out. So, it's possible to fall in love with someone who doesn't "harmonize" with you.

Also, it's possible to fall in love with someone who does. I personally believe that one of your soulmates isn't necessarily the person you're meant to "be with" for the rest of your life. Usually (according to myself, at any rate), one can mistake the feelings one gets for a soulmate as what we call a "romantic love." The feelings are somewhat similar and usually a tad hazy, so they're easily mistaken for something they may not necessarily be.

I'm sorry if I don't make any sense or if my beliefs somehow warrant spoiler tags. If it makes anyone feel better, I confuse myself a lot, too. >_> But, this is what I think happened with Tsukasa and Subaru. They're both soulmates, but they may mistake it for romance. (Which it very well may be; I'm not them, so I wouldn't know.)

So, the bottom line is this. I think that they love each other, but in a way that most people wouldn't understand. It's a very deep, complicated love that transcends the boundaries of an average person (not that I'm insulting anyone or their beliefs by using the term "average").

But, then again, isn't transcending boundaries a rather large portion of what the .hack series is about? (Yes, yes; that's an entirely different discussion.)

And there's my two cents without referring to any .hack//ZERO or ANALYSIS rumors at all. But if they manage to date and get approval (or even if they can't get approval), then good for them. I am in no way against any homosexual relationship. (Although, I am rather sorry for writing such a massive post and spacing it out so much. I can't help it; call it an obsessive-compulsive reflex. )

[AuraTwilight]

I have to agree with everything Satu's said. I've always felt that Tsukasa's and Subaru's feelings transcended romance. It's Agapic love, not Erotic.

[SnowManZero]

people should feel less sory about long post's....

anyway, Satu, i think that you are right, but i don't like the whole concept of soulmate. the meaning of it is understandable and that's what i agree with you about, but i realy don't see why people have to have soulmate's, or at least call it that.

but that's my opinion, and i've almost given up on the world, that's my belief. i don't like how everything contradict's everything else and how one person should be right and the other wrong simply because of what is shown to the general public.

'to climb the highest,to run the furthest, to be the strongest, to envy one another, to hate and to love one another, to mourn one another and devour one another'

this quote from Rau La Crusset is true in my opinion.

forgive my off topicness, but i had to state my belief's

[Satu]

Well, at a lot of other forums I go to, you get scolded for making long posts. *shrug* So I've got a reflex to apologize afterwards.

And to clear up my own beliefs...

I didn't say that everyone had to have a soulmate, did I? I'm sure there are souls out there who don't work well with any other soul. Or, perhaps a soul they'd work with isn't in that area of the world or not on that world or whatever. And I don't like calling it a soulmate, either. It makes it sound exclusive and flowery or something.

But thank you for agreeing, at least. xD I thank AuraTwilight, as well. I didn't know if I'd be considered a freak or not for thinking this way.

And, technically, stating your beliefs like this isn't off-topic, since we're discussing Subaru and Tsukasa's love for one another, which logically involes explaining your reasoning behind your opinion, right?

But, pertaining to Tsukasa and Subaru a little more... A great amount of people sure seem to be validating the "rumors" about //ZERO. And I think that, personally, I may as well believe them until I'm provided with evidence that they're not true. (While also keeping my own opinions on their relationship, of course.)

[SnowManZero]

wow, reverence and yet a don't back down attitude! cool

and as for zero, from what i understand, they meet up offline and go somewhere. they watch iether the sky or firework's and they talk, i think that's all that's rumoured to have happened.

i want zero because one of it's main charicter's is the coolest bloody PKer alive.....

SORA

oh and a wise idea, don't believe the thing's you here at face value! if they have evidence to support it, then believe the evidence

[Umbra]

Back on topic then:

Tsukasa and Subaru do not appear to have any physical relationship, it may not even be romantic. There are many things that point towards this, when Bear says that the two of them can heal a little at a time in each other's company, and Subaru states that they don't talk much, but simply enjoy each other's company.

I have no doubt that Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship continued, due to their interaction in the last three episodes and, finally, the scene at the end of Episode 26. Subaru also tells Tsukasa that she was drawn to his spirit or soul, this suggests that she does not care what Tsukasa is physically.

The director of SIGN, Koichi Mashimo, is reputed for giving his work somewhat suggestive scenes and comments, such as the kiss between Chloe and Kirika in Noir, which was meant to represent Kirika's connection to her darker side. It seems to me that most western fans take these deeper relationships and, through their dirty minds, turn them into something sexual.

I have no doubt that Tsukasa and Subaru remained much more than just friends, or even your average girlfriends of that age. They share a deep and meaningful relationship, again, Subaru commented that she was only ever happy when she was with Tsukasa.

[Observer]

Hello.

I'm new to these boards and I realize this reply is probably coming a little late but I couldn't help but feel compelled to speak on this particular topic.

I am a big fan of the .hack franchise. I have all of the episodes, including Intermezzo and Unison (and GIFT if you count it), on dvd. I have played through all four of the games and I have also read all three volumes of the manga and I have read both volumes of AI Buster. I am currently seeking to obtain my own copies of .hack//ZERO, .hack//analysis, and the .hack Encyclopedia. I am also currently studying the Japanese Language and therefore I look forward to the day when I will be able to read these books for myself instead of having to rely on other people who have read them or at least have them.

The subject of the nature of Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship is something that I have been interested in for a long time. There is little doubt in my mind that they are soulmates. They were both so greatly drawn to each other so quickly and effortlessly that it's difficult to think of any other explanation for it. But with regard to the question of whether or not there is actual romance between them I would have to say that the answer to that is yes there is. The book .hack//ZERO isn't the only book that has hints indicating this. The book .hack//analysis also allegedly contains information supporting them having that kind of relationship, but this isn't the main point I'm trying to make.

I believe a user called Storm posted a while ago that in the .hack Encyclopedia there is a character chart that has lines connecting both Kite and Blackrose and Tsukasa and Subaru. These lines are both labeled "rabu rabu". Of course "rabu" is Japan's imported version of the word love. But I have looked into this further and discovered something interesting. I have learned that in Japan the particular phrase "rabu rabu" is actually a slang for romantic love. Apparently this expression is generally used by young people to refer to themselves as truly in love with each other. So if you would like some very strong evidence, if not outright proof, of a romantic relationship between the two characters then it's probably right there. There is romance between them just as there is romance between Kite and Blackrose.

Of course this is by no means the only indicator of romance between the two of them and there are other things I could say in support of them having that kind of relationship but I don't want to make this post too long and besides I have seen that some previous users have already said some of those things. So for now at least that is all I'd like to say.

[SnowManZero]

don't suppose you got a pic of the encyclopedia, do ya?

scan it, and send the image's, we'd love to see them

(in australia, where i proudly reside, it is nearly impossible to find any dot hack merchandise other than the main stuff-game's,anime and LOTB.)

oh, and you should say hello in the welcome thread, located in off-topic.

[Observer]

Unfortunately I currently don't have a copy of the encyclopedia nor have I been able to find any pictures of it on the net aside from the cover. I didn't say that I did either. I simply pointed out something that a user called Storm posted on this thread back on page 3.

HOWEVER,

A little while ago I found a place on the internet that has the .hack encyclopedia available for order. So I placed an order for it. I think it should arrive in about one to two weeks max. I don't think Storm was lying since what he/she said does seem to be consistent with other indicators about Tsukasa and Subaru as well as Kite and Blackrose. Nevertheless I'll be able to directly verify it for myself soon enough. I'm not fluent in Japanese yet but I should definitely be able to spot and verify one small but meaningful piece of information when I see it. I also have a digital camera at my disposal so hold that thought on the images. If I can post the tell-tale info or something else on this thread or somewhere else than I will soon enough.

And by the way, by "coolest PKer" do you mean Sora?

[S1lentOp]

I don't believe their "love" is a romantic or sexual love. There's a connection obviously, but I don't believe it is of a sexual nature.

[AuraTwilight]

I always figured their relationship was spiritual and intimate of mind, like Christus and Sophia of Gnostic mythology.

Or alternatively, Shinji and Rei from Evangelion.

[Observer]

Oops, sorry. I somehow didn't notice that you had already pointed out that Sora was the PK that you were talking about.

And in response to marthwmaster:

Yes, I believe you are right. I don't think that "sexual" is the best word to describe Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship. The love between them is in all likelihood of the romantic type but the the nature of that romance by all means would appear to be predominantly emotional and spiritual as opposed to earthly and physical. And by the way sexual intimacy and romance are two seperate things and while these two things are often both present in relationships they are by no means inherently intertwined or linked. If they were then parapalegics would never be able to marry and/or have love lives, which they do. Now back to Tsukasa and Subaru.

And yes, what brings them together is the fact that they are essentially the same deep down. I suppose the term "soulmates" is one way of describing this kind of deep bond. During one of their conversations they both said and agreed that they were the same, and it's true. Tsukasa first came to the world and didn't want to leave it for some time because he had come to despise the real world and wanted to escape it. Subaru came to the world as a way of escaping the bonds that had been inflicted upon her by her disability in the real world. When she asked Tsukasa not to deny reality she also admitted that this wasn't something she should say, apparently because this was something she had been doing herself.

However, I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you in terms of whether or not their connection goes beyond "The World". It obviously does. It is true that an essential part of RPGs, especially online RPGs, is creating an online self different from ones real world self. But it was established during the series that for both Tsukasa and Subaru things weren't that simple. "The World" for both of them was more than a game. Subaru in particular said that all she wanted was to be with Tsukasa and that that was what The World was to her. For her it was a connection to Tsukasa.

This is most likely why Tsukasa and Subaru stopped logging into The World regularly after Tsukasa was able to log out. The main driving force behind Tsukasa's decision to return to the real world was his desire to see Subaru there. For Subaru in turn there was apparently no point in logging into The World if Tsukasa wasn't there. Although as is indicated by ZERO and Unison Tsukasa and Subaru would still log into The World if it was to fulfill a specific short term goal like going to a party or some other task. It was even indicated by their cameo appearances in the .hack//Legend of the Twilight manga that the two of them still get together in The World. But their relationship is definitely not limited to The World. This is established in multiple places like that scene in ZERO with Tsukasa and Subaru as their real world selves, An and Mariko. In Unison Tsukasa takes Subaru's hand and asks her if she will get together with him the next time he has vacation time. She says yes without a moments hesitation. Also when the two of them meet for the first time in the real world they are both very happy. Subaru, or Mariko, in particular was so happy she actually started to cry tears of joy. So you see the bond between Tsukasa and Subaru does indeed exist in both worlds.

But I definitely agree with you that the two of them are great together. Tsukasa is one of my favorite characters but I have some rather mixed feelings about Subaru. Even so I still think she is a great match for Tsukasa.

So I'm sorry if I got a little carried away but I had those thoughts in my head for some time and it feels good to finally put them into words. I thank you for the oppurtunity.

Oh, and AuraTwilight:

I'm not sure if comparing the bond between Tsukasa and Surbaru is very accurate. Sure Shinji and Tsukasa are similar in some ways and the general plots of Evangelion and .hack//sign are also similar in some ways. But Rei was a partial clone of Shinji's mother and also in a very real way the sister he never had. Bear in mind the conversation between Shinji's parents in which Gendo Ikari said that if their child was a boy they would call it Shinji and if it was a girl they would call it Rei. The bond between Tsukasa and Subaru is rather different. Perhaps the greatest indication of this would be the touching scene between Tsukasa and Subaru at the end of the episode "Recollection". So even if one prefers not to acknowledge the likelihood of romance between the two of them a comparision to what Shinji and Rei had would still seem to be somewhat of a stretch. Although that is a rather interesting thought you have there.

[Shinsou Wotan]

A word of warning about Encyclopedia .hack:
Much of what it contains is speculation, rather than confirmed fact. Be careful not to rely on it exclusively.

[Observer]

Thank you very much. My thoughts on the matter haven't changed as I have a number of other reasons for believing what I do in addition to what is in the .hack encyclopedia, for example .hack//analysis also reportedly contains information supporting the aforementioned perception of Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship not to mention the implications in ZERO, to name a couple. But the encyclopedia may have more significance than one may think. After all, it is from the same country as .hack//analysis and .hack//ZERO and therefore at the very least the people who have worked on the encyclopedia have had easy access to both .hack//ZERO and .hack//analysis and the ability to read them. In other words, they would have better resources at their disposal would be more likely to know what their doing than many of the people in this part of the world. So I personally wouldn't be quick to dismiss the encyclopedia as irrelevant.

Nevertheless I greatly appreciate you offering your insight Shinsou Wotan. Thanks again.

[SnowManZero]

Nevertheless I greatly appreciate you offering your insight Shinsou Wotan. Thanks again.

you'll be saying that soooooo many time's it's not funny!

i would have to say that it's a sort of connection to each other, as said quite frequently in this whole thread. this connection with each other developed feeling's best described as love.

and if i had to compare it to anyone else's, i would also compare it to Shinji and Rei from Evangelion.mainly, because i haven't a clue in hell who the other two people are.

[Observer]

Seriously? You've never heard of them until now?

[AuraTwilight]

Wow, Zero XD You're behind in anime fandom. Anyway.

I'm not sure if comparing the bond between Tsukasa and Surbaru is very accurate. Sure Shinji and Tsukasa are similar in some ways and the general plots of Evangelion and .hack//sign are also similar in some ways. But Rei was a partial clone of Shinji's mother and also in a very real way the sister he never had. Bear in mind the conversation between Shinji's parents in which Gendo Ikari said that if their child was a boy they would call it Shinji and if it was a girl they would call it Rei. The bond between Tsukasa and Subaru is rather different. Perhaps the greatest indication of this would be the touching scene between Tsukasa and Subaru at the end of the episode "Recollection". So even if one prefers not to acknowledge the likelihood of romance between the two of them a comparision to what Shinji and Rei had would still seem to be somewhat of a stretch. Although that is a rather interesting thought you have there.

You make some really great points. But my overall point was that Shinji and Rei, like Tsukasa and Subaru, are attracted to each other because deep down they're the same. Not only biologically (well, aside from Rei being the body and soul of the Mother of all Mankind, but peh) but because they both try and seperate themselves from the world around them in an almost autistic fashion, because they want to get close to others, but are afraid of getting hurt. Furthermore, they both feel like they have no value outside of piloting EVA, and are afraid of being deemed worthless by others. Just like Tsukasa and Subaru, they have a connection to each other that can't be made with anyone else simply because of who they are, romance and sex probably not even a part of it.

Unfortunately, Shinji and Rei's connection was kinda cut short by Rei dying all the time and finally being absorbed into Lilith to bring about the Apocalypse, buuuuut whaddya gonna do?

[Observer]

I see your point. I honestly can't shake the feeling that the bond between Tsukasa and Subaru has at least some romantic element involved but I guess the most important thing is that they're the same deep down. In that sense I guess they are similar to Shinji and Rei. I guess it's essentially the same thing even if it's not exactly the same thing.

Oh, and by the way, I know this is off-topic but are you talking about the "End of Evangelion" movie or just the last episode of the series? Because if I remember correctly Shinji and Rei did actually share at least one meaningful moment near the very end.

[marthwmaster]

However, I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you in terms of whether or not their connection goes beyond "The World". It obviously does. It is true that an essential part of RPGs, especially online RPGs, is creating an online self different from ones real world self. But it was established during the series that for both Tsukasa and Subaru things weren't that simple. "The World" for both of them was more than a game. Subaru in particular said that all she wanted was to be with Tsukasa and that that was what The World was to her. For her it was a connection to Tsukasa.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I definitely realize that the two have a bond outside the game, and I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. But the fact that Tsukasa is male in the game does change the perceived relationship he has with Subaru, at least until they realize that he's a girl IRL.

[Observer]

Do you mean the way others perceive it or the way Tsukasa and Subaru themselves perceive it?