My disdain at publishers refusing localizing games.

[Sadivinedevil]

I did a lot of research I just wasn't researching the things you specifically wanted me to research. If I knew that Nintendo had placed NTSC functionality in the PAL Wii I would have agreed with you, but I did not know this and it wasn't that obvious until you brought up the video. Essentially I was arguing against a misunderstanding of your statement that the "import PAL Wii's Progressive scan allowed the image to display properly on an NTSC TV" (these words wouldn't make a lot sense to people who don't know how the PAL Wii is setup). In this case I couldn't believe you because I believed that the Progressive scan was PAL and not NTSC, and I argued against you with PAL vs NTSC instead of how the PAL Wii is setup. In the future I would suggest having at least a link to something to back up your argument if these arguments drag because I'm sure not everyone is going to look at exactly what you want them to look at. I'm sorry if I argued with you for so many posts, I just didn't have all the facts, and I'm glad you cleared up the inconsistencies. I'm also sorry for the dumb@$$ comment because it was 2am and my head wasn't in the right place. Oh and the plug thing was more comical than it was actually arguing with you, I knew that it would be an easy fix even if it was present.

[Kuukai]

If I knew that Nintendo had placed NTSC functionality in the PAL Wii I would have agreed with you

But they didn't. That's not true. I think the video explains pretty well why it works and it's not that.

"import PAL Wii's Progressive scan allowed the image to display properly on an NTSC TV"

This is true. Progressive scan is only available via CAV, which is a different format from NTSC or PAL. The number of scanlines don't really matter, either, you can send 576i over NTSC if you really want to, and it would work. Some games NES did this on purpose iirc, I'll try to add the link I'm thinking of...

[JunBansyoya]

Wow fun subject.

Kinda straying off the topic of localization.

So hopefully i can change that.

Fun fact I only learned about recently is that Japaneses developers are not sentimental about their code, it is not the product that matters it is really the process, which is kinda awesome and kinda sucks. From a theological standpoint it is brilliant, you learn from the experience not from anything else, so basing your knowledge on something external to you seems so illogical. But one thing about programming is that if you have a library that is good you can reuse it, they take a different route in that they can make it again using the experience they gained from the previous attempt (which is not as bad as it sounds but once you program something each time you rewrite a similar function the easier and more efficient the product gets).

This means once a project is finished and shipped it might never be saved to safe storage or archived. If they need a similar function again they write it again, this mentality has a secondary effect of making many of the early games unfeasible to localize, modifying the source is much easier than modifying the product. Some stuff like this still happens from what I have heard, although less and less as you have seen on the logos at the beginning of Japanese games many of them are built on a variant of the cri engine.

Sure this does not explain Xenoblade being Japan and Europe only(we know there is a English version), but it does explain some other projects. I know for example the LINK engine is very heavily modified from the standard cry engine with some places where it does not make deterministic sense, I would not be surprised if there is some piece of the source missing that is holding up the official localization process.

[Sadivinedevil]

Dear lord can you please stop Kuukai. Seriously I can see clearly that Nintendo did allow the European (PAL) Wii to switch between both NTSC and PAL. By the way I have no clue what CAV is, any Google/Wikipedia is your friend comment won't remedy this, but from my knowledge it isn't a video output signal (those are PAL NTSC SECAM and ATSC). My guess is that it is a switch that allows the console to switch between the two signals, but I'm no credible source on this. So what is it Mr. Encyclopedia?

I believe every time I've posted a comment you've had to try and prove how wrong I was, all the while being absolutely cryptic and not backing up your claims. If you're going to prove me wrong nay prove everyone you meet wrong back up your all so mighty disprovable claims. I don't want to argue with you about how the Wii works down to the binary code that allows it to work on any TV because it is as you said Irrelevant. I have no plans of Importing a Wii even if Xenoblade or the other games don't get released. I'm not only annoyed about that I have to argue with you about the basic knowledge of TV signals that I have on top of that. I'm not my father who is the cable guy named Larry. I really don't want to know how BMR's or Quadrature Amplitude Modulation works because it isn't exactly relevant to my life. All I wanted to do was rant about how I hated that the localization of games doesn't happen because the Publishers are more often then not ignorant of how much money they will get in return. Unfortunately, I had to screw that up by arguing with you about something that I now know I had no right to argue with you about. I would suggest that we drop the subject no matter how "wrong" I am and move on before I get another migraine headache.

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHF ... TF-8&q=CAV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAM

[Sadivinedevil]

As an artist I can say this is a more common mentality in entertainment industries among the actual artists. In contrast the Publishers/Managers are the ones who are more concerned with the final product selling well because they want to make sure that the time spent by the developers on it was well worth it. They also want to make sure that the company stays afloat so the developers can work on the next product. If the developers were concerned with this we would probably be given a lot of shovelware because they would be more concerned with making money than making art.

The reason why Link doesn't seem to be getting published is probably because the Namco Bandai doesn't believe that it will get that much more than the cost of localizing because only the fans will buy it, .hack having a relatively small fanbase doesn't help the current predicament. Xenoblade on the other hand has been localized for Europe which is probably a bigger undertaking than localizing America because of the many languages it would have to be translated into. Nintendo only said that they had not planned to release these games in America, and they did not say they wouldn't. Monado/Xenoblade was #1on the top sellers list on Amazon because of preorders, and chances are that it will reach America, Nintendo would be stupid not to release it. I believe that Nintendo's statement may be a marketing ploy in order to ensure that more gamers buy the games day 1, but I cannot confirm this.

[Kuukai]

This means once a project is finished and shipped it might never be saved to safe storage or archived.

That's pretty interesting... you know about the source code shown in Liminality, right?

Yeah, more and more Japanese games say havok or cri or whatever. I think CC2 did reuse some libraries, though, I remember them making a post somewhere about the difficulties of moving to something that wasn't PS2. PlatinumGames on the other hand if you watch the "making of" videos it really does look like that philosophy, where you start with a totally blank slate...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize CAV was a really obscure term, I pulled it from this explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video

In popular use, it refers to a type of component analog video (CAV) information that is transmitted or stored as three separate signals. Component video can be contrasted with composite video (NTSC, PAL or SECAM) in which all the video information is combined into a single line-level signal that is used in analog television.

The PAL Wii isn't outputting in NTSC. Moreover, you could do the same thing with an American Wii in Europe and it would also work (this one's pretty easy to check). This isn't because an American Wii has a PAL option.

Seriously I can see clearly that Nintendo did allow the European (PAL) Wii to switch between both NTSC and PAL.

Where? What says this? The manual? The bios? Do you mean 480 = NTSC? Then what is the 480i option that doesn't work supposed to be? If you can explain why this is somehow NTSC even though it doesn't work on NTSC TVs I'll drop it, but that doesn't make sense to me. I have absolutely nothing against you at all, please don't freak out about this, if you post something on a forum it's open to correction. That's what you we doing to me when you told me it was so expensive to import, and all I was trying to say to begin with was that there was an upside to this for people who actually wanted to play this game. I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way that it went on for so long but I'll argue with my echo. I do my best to check if I'm wrong and I'll admit it when I am, though. You've seen this before: http://dothackers.net/forums/viewtopic. ... 46#p429146 But if you ask me to drop it and, in the same post, tell me I'm still wrong, well... would you find it easy to comply with that if things were still unclear? I'm still interested in the truth.

The link I promised was something I read a long time ago and couldn't easily find on google so it took a while to dig up: http://nfgworld.com/mb/post/1703 - but I totally misremembered, from the looks of things screens could only be compressed horizontally, not vertically, which makes a lot more sense. Apparently they can be stretched vertically, which is interesting, but there are no examples of vertical squishing there and I thought there were. I never said 576p would work on an NTSC TV, though, because as far as I know progressive scan is only supported over component analog, and as you can see above as I understand it that's neither NTSC or PAL. But the idea that you could squeeze in more rows was incorrect, I promised you I would find the source for that and the source said that I was wrong.

I'm sorry I don't go out of my way to agree with something when I actually do, but for the record this you hit spot on:

The reason why Link doesn't seem to be getting published is probably because the Namco Bandai doesn't believe that it will get that much more than the cost of localizing because only the fans will buy it, .hack having a relatively small fanbase doesn't help the current predicament. Xenoblade on the other hand has been localized for Europe which is probably a bigger undertaking than localizing America because of the many languages it would have to be translated into. Nintendo only said that they had not planned to release these games in America, and they did not say they wouldn't. Monado/Xenoblade was #1on the top sellers list on Amazon because of preorders, and chances are that it will reach America, Nintendo would be stupid not to release it.

Like XSEED said, Link is probably a waste of money. The only conceivable reason for Nintendo to not want to release Xenoblade is if it were like the past Xeno- games and there was a lot of loaded religious stuff, but reading over Wikipedia this does not appear to be the case. And if it was it wouldn't be super-likely to come out in France either...

[Sadivinedevil]

Thanks for clarifying I'm not really familiar with on the signals that go through the cables that the consoles use, and I assuming that it was the same as cable systems which until a few months ago supported NTSC PAL and SECAM, now everything is ATSC from what I researched. I was not only looking that the numbers like 576i and 480i. If you noticed the screen was black and white and stretched vertically when the guy in your video turned on the Wii at that time the signal was most likely PAL since PAL's colors are done differently than NTSC and it also has more lines which give it a vertically stretched image. I'm assuming when he changed it to 480i it was NTSC because the colors displayed properly on the TV. 480p might be the CAV you were talking about earlier. Then again CAV might be referring to the method used to transfer the signal which is through 3 lines, the Black and white and the colors between the 3 cables (Y, Pb, Pr or R, G, B). The one thing that seems to contradict this is the quote you have from Wikipedia in which seems to say that only Composite has the signal pertaining to NTSC PAL and SECAM because they are in parenthesis next to the word Composite.

Upon further reading of the wikipedia page it would seem that PAL and NTSC may still apply to CAV, but they aren't mentioned enough to confirm that or deny that. Though the NTSC Wikipedia page does actually somewhat confirm that component (CAV) may be a way to display an NTSC signal in its "comparative quality" section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC

Moving on though the Xeno series has had high religious overtones it has never really been a problem from what I can tell. It's probably more likely to do with blood or a little too much cleavage was showing which were the things that were censored in the Xenosaga series. Nintendo might be holding it back because of minor censorship issues like these, but I doubt that's the case.

[JunBansyoya]

This means once a project is finished and shipped it might never be saved to safe storage or archived.

That's pretty interesting... you know about the source code shown in Liminality, right?

I can't believe I am saying this here but I haven't watched Liminality yet, are you talking about source from the real game or source from The World?

[Kuukai]

It's really hard to tell between the Wii's monotone screens and his accent, but unless I'm totally misunderstanding something the 480i is black and white until he switches the cable, and then it becomes color (note the red selector rectangle in the resolution options screen). The reason he gives is that the two different kinds of composite signals, NTSC and PAL, are incompatible (leading to a picture that's black and white, because the color can't be deciphered), while the signal over the composite cable is sent the same way in Europe and America. As far as I can tell, NTSC/PAL formats (where the video is all one signal) and component are different ideas, but like you said Wikipedia is poorly written and unclear about this... I do have a friend who works with video so I asked him, and his explanation was:
-Component isn't NTSC or PAL, it's a different format
-That doesn't mean European and American component are always compatible though, because there's still 576i/p vs. 480i/p resolutions
-However, most modern digital TVs in Europe have tuners that support both 576i/p and 480i/p component.
-Many flatscreens in America don't support 576i/p component, although there's no great reason for this, it's just locked out.

I'm not saying believe this, but I did find it made what we're seeing make more sense so I figured I'd post it here.

I can't believe I am saying this here but I haven't watched Liminality yet, are you talking about source from the real game or source from The World?

From the game: http://dothackers.net/forums/viewtopic. ... 75&p=35708
The code made it from CC2 to the Bee Train studio, so it's possible there's at least a little senitmental value there. It's an interesting sidenote in any case...

Moving on though the Xeno series has had high religious overtones it has never really been a problem from what I can tell. It's probably more likely to do with blood or a little too much cleavage was showing which were the things that were censored in the Xenosaga series. Nintendo might be holding it back because of minor censorship issues like these, but I doubt that's the case.

Xenogears had a lot more religion-related changes. "Church" became "Ethos", in the Japanese version limitters were also called "the mark", a lot of things along those lines were toned down. But if Mother 3 is an example of where NOA draws the line, then even Square USA's final product, where there's a still boss named Deus, could be a problem to them. But again, I don't think this applies to Xenoblade after taking a look at it, and unlike Mother 3 it's already translated, all they'd need to do is edit it... Unless Wikipedia omitted that the plot revolves entirely around some integral character named Satan God-Judas and there are cherubs and crosses and 666's like Xenosaga or something, I don't see why they couldn't do that. I can't think of an NOA game that contained a lot of religion. Sin and Punishment Star Successor contained numerous political and religious topics in the Japanese dialogue that they just censored entirely in the English version. "God" became "the creators", the G5 nations became "Nebulox". Xenosaga on the other hand would be visual and narrative swiss cheese if they did the same thing. No Abel, no Ark, no Old Jerusalem, no New Jerusalem, no Zohar, no Pope, no number on Jr.'s hand... That's about where Mother 3 is, they could bring it over but to fit their standards they'd need to remake entire parts of it on a scale not usually seen in localization, and that's probably a part of why despite all the awesome advertising via Smash and all the rage mail they decided against even releasing it on VC... Anyway, I think we agree it shouldn't be an issue for Xenoblade, which didn't even start out as a spiritual successor apparently, it's just the first thing I thought of when I saw "NOA" and "Xeno".

Unfortunately, it seems for whatever reason Nintendo doesn't want to do it:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/vi ... alizations
It's irritating they won't even explain why, but it's nice they're giving a prompt and mostly-clear response...

[Sadivinedevil]

I'm not familiar with the cables, just the signals, so I'm going to take your word on that.

Mother 3 had many issues going for it. The common ones that I hear about are that it had many copyrighted songs that were not agreed upon in America, it came out near the end of the GBA's lifespan, and I guess the gay kissing was another reason to. It's Nintendo's loss though since it has already been translated by the fans, and anyone can technically play it for free. As for the Xeno series it has been handled by 3 different Publishers (Square Enix, Namco Bandai, and Nintendo) so far and they handle the censorship differently. Square was more concerned with the religious aspects, and Namco bandai was more concerned with the blood and gore. Nintendo might censor Xenoblade in some fashion, but as we've both said before that would not be a good reason to not release it. I think they are planning to release it they just don't want to confirm it yet because they want to see how well it does in Europe. It's sad because this year is definitely one of the worst years in my opinion to have a Wii with only Skyward Sword coming out.

[Kuukai]

Mother 3 had many issues going for it. The common ones that I hear about are that it had many copyrighted songs that were not agreed upon in America, it came out near the end of the GBA's lifespan, and I guess the gay kissing was another reason to. It's Nintendo's loss though since it has already been translated by the fans, and anyone can technically play it for free. As for the Xeno series it has been handled by 3 different Publishers (Square Enix, Namco Bandai, and Nintendo) so far and they handle the censorship differently. Square was more concerned with the religious aspects, and Namco bandai was more concerned with the blood and gore. Nintendo might censor Xenoblade in some fashion, but as we've both said before that would not be a good reason to not release it. I think they are planning to release it they just don't want to confirm it yet because they want to see how well it does in Europe. It's sad because this year is definitely one of the worst years in my opinion to have a Wii with only Skyward Sword coming out.

it had two song parodies, but one of them was already in Earthbound and that was apparently fine. Both are for minor enemy encounters and could be swapped with other songs using an edit so easy I think it's gamesharkable. Nintendo has already localized games like Sin and Punishment Earth Successor via VC after the life of its original system and that apparently wasn't a problem. So like you said it's kinda stupid.

I don't think they have secret plans if they gave a response like that, but they did say anything is possible I guess...

[Sadivinedevil]

So far there may be some GBA games planned for the 3DS' virtual console in the future, and one of those games might be Mother 3. That would definitely be a day one buy for me if and when it comes out.

Let's just be optimistic for the time being.