Do you believe in the Supernatural?

[Ratsu]

This is a very conflicting topic for me, and before you come in and be all "Bla bla science say bla." I know, the reason its conflicting for me is because I am a man of science, but I myself have seen things I cant explain, and what I saw was not a hallucination so I know the only answer is supernatural. (Though I wont go into detail because I would prefer to keep this to myself) I hate being a person who only thinks of science, yet cant deny the existence of supernatural things. So I ask you, whats your opinion on things of this nature .hacker.net?

[TheSorrow]

I believe there are things that science can not YET prove. Things that happen around us, things we can see and experience, and don't have any clue of what they are and understand nothing about them, so we immediatly relate to something "supernatural" or "paranormal". These things can range from seeing something in the sky moving too wierdly, seeing something in front of us that we can't relate to any human or living being, talking a person then finding out that person was never there, hearing voices you clearly heard and could even be recorded but there was no one to speak them, etc. And i actually believe that all these things are real and do exist, but can be proven and fully explained just as much as a sudden flash of light in the sky followed by a loud noise can be proven and fully explained, and with a name assigned to it (lightning), not just assumed as an angel soaring through the heaven or god taking pictures or something like that. Of course, science is right now way more focused into crashing particles into each other to find other particles, and looking for cures of stuff like AIDS and cancer rather than finding WTF "ghosts" truly are.

So yeah, i believe in the "supernatural", but not as things that can't simply be explained by science, instead as things that have yet to be explained. And it's probable that our current science is not able to explain them based on all the knowledge and understanding it currently has on life and universe and etc., but, science itself has yet to learn alot more things about everything. After all, we could be totally wrong about what atoms really are and what do they really do.



LOL, My post might sound all "bla bla science say bla" now that i read it again XD But well, my idea wasn't to say that...Instead to say something like "science doesn't know yet". And science is stubborn too >3>

[AuraTwilight]

As an aside, I personally prefer the term "paranormal" as in things outside of the normative experience, since EVERYTHING is part of "nature."

As for whether or not I believe in the "supernatural", I'd have to say generally no. Aside from me being an atheist/science is awesum! type of guy, I've yet to find any paranormal phenomena that didn't have a better, more mundane explanation.

I mean, just think on it for a second. The only people who report witnessing the supernatural are either people who WANTED to see it, or people who already believed in it all along, such as the people who claim to witness seeing Jesus in things. Atheists and Muslims never see Jesus in their grilled cheese, so WTF?

The same thing happens here. It's called Observer Expectant Bias, and the human brain is basically a pattern-finding machine. If we want to find a pattern (IE: There's a ghost here), we'll find one even if it's not there.

Maybe there ARE ghosts, supernatural creatures, psychic powers, and the like. I'm not opposed to them. I won't say "They can't exist because it's absolutely impossible", it's just I've yet to see a good case for it.

[Ratsu]

Thanks guys, these are the kind of posts I was hoping for. =D

[Smitts]

AuraTwilight,
I didn't want to or didnt beleive it in all along.
I'm still skeptical about it

but I have seen and heard things before.
But like TheSorrow said, it is probably explainable.

[Keyaki]

Personally, I'd say there is a good possibility. There are something I've seen in the past years that seemed like something that couldn't be proven by science or the like, so I'd say yes

[marthwmaster]

As an aside, I personally prefer the term "paranormal" as in things outside of the normative experience, since EVERYTHING is part of "nature."

From a scientific perspective, yes. However, not everyone believes science is able to explain everything. The existence or nonexistence of a transcendent God, for example. Since science refers to the study of the natural word, I think using the term supernatural to describe things beyond science is fairly accurate. That said, I think you are right in saying "paranormal" is a better way of saying what TheSorrow was describing, since even things science cannot prove yet are within nature.

As for me, I believe in a transcendent God who is spiritually present in the world. And I do believe that AT's explanation of the observer-expectancy effect applies to God just as much as he does to things that are physically visible, in that people who want to see God do, and people who don't want to see Him don't. The problem is in the proving or disproving of an entity without a tangible ("touchable") presence. But I have a strong conviction that there is a loving God.

[AuraTwilight]

From a scientific perspective, yes. However, not everyone believes science is able to explain everything. The existence or nonexistence of a transcendent God, for example. Since science refers to the study of the natural word, I think using the term supernatural to describe things beyond science is fairly accurate. That said, I think you are right in saying "paranormal" is a better way of saying what TheSorrow was describing, since even things science cannot prove yet are within nature.

Outside of laymen's usage, "nature" is basically synonymous with "reality." If God is "non-natural" or "super-natural", then that's the same as saying "God is non-real or outside of real."

Science really isn't a thing with limits. It's only that the people using it, People, are limited. Science isn't so much a device or tool so much as it's a way of looking at things that exist, and it's infinitely, omnipresently permeable, just like mathematics. If God were to show himself, he would be scientifically examinable.

As for me, I believe in a transcendent God who is spiritually present in the world. And I do believe that AT's explanation of the observer-expectancy effect applies to God just as much as he does to things that are physically visible, in that people who want to see God do, and people who don't want to see Him don't. The problem is in the proving or disproving of an entity without a tangible ("touchable") presence. But I have a strong conviction that there is a loving God.

You're right. This is generally why so many people have such a problem with believing in a deity, simply because just about any case of "proof" can be disproven as being some other phenomena, and whatnot. While the concept of a loving God is a nice one, and I'd certainly like to believe it's true, I don't think it can be.

Leaving aside the Problem of Evil, such as "Why would God create disease?" and yadda yadda...

My big problem with religions in general is that it posits that humanity somehow matters in the grand scheme of things, when everything else makes the case that this just isn't so. We evolved out of other animals and our entire species' existence is infinitely short in comparison to the rest of the universe, to the point that you wonder that if the universe existed for humankind, why were the gods just sitting around for like eight billion years? Were they whacking off?

Secondly, the Earth will be destroyed by a supernova sun in a few million years, and the universe will exist for....an infinitely larger span of time outside of that. So from beginning to end, the universe will never have known we were here. Unless it's part of God's plan that we become technologically posthuman Singularity gods that rule the stars, in which case I might have to rethink my atheism because that's totally my kind of deity.

But unfortunately, I've yet to find a single reason why any of the religions are anything more than a simple coping mechanism for humans unable to cope with the futility and mortality of human existence in the face of a cold, incomprehensible, and uncaring universe. And statistically, this has to be true for ALL religions except one at best, so why should there even be the one? And if we find aliens, then almost all anthropocentric mythologies will just totally fall to ****.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not going to be telling anyone their religion is objectively wrong and they should stop practicing it, yadda yadda. Stay out of other people's business and I return the favor (But if you're going to be pushing your religion into politics, such as screwing with other people's marriage rights or whatever, I'm kind've obligated to crush your worldview for the moral good).

Okay, rant over, sorry.

[Ratsu]

I cant wait to see the day Aliens come to earth.
"Oh let me teach you the way of god! "
"O.o let me teach you the ways of Cleb-knarg! "

lul

[jhonnymarsh]

I had a friend who said she say a creepy man standing in her living room one minute and when she looked back he was gone. and a few other people have told me similar stories about seeing ghosts.

[shugo_lover]

I cant wait to see the day Aliens come to earth.
"Oh let me teach you the way of god! "
"O.o let me teach you the ways of Cleb-knarg! "

lul

lol That would be Fascinateing

[AuraTwilight]

I had a friend who said she say a creepy man standing in her living room one minute and when she looked back he was gone. and a few other people have told me similar stories about seeing ghosts.

Yea, and? People convince themselves they've seen things they really haven't all the time. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything.

[Altre]

I see **** all the time. No doubt most of it is just my brain putting together something out of nothing (AT already mention how our minds are pattern-finding machines, watch the Discovery channel). It's not a matter of "believing" it to me, it's a matter of facts and possibilities. I could turn away after seeing something, then look back at the same empty location and force an that same image back into view. I'm not saying "ghosts" or "spirits" becoming visible in some way is bs, but I don't see why they would. Unless your dead neighbor was an ass in life and an ass after, he probably wouldn't have a reason to appear in your bathroom while you're using the john (why do people never report something completely awkward and strange like this?).

If I died and had no reason to show my self to others, I'd surely go off and do whatever "spirits" do. According to my theories on the afterlife, I don't think we carry a humanoid figure after death anyways. But according to my theories, it should be possible to interact in some electrical manner. Ever heard of white noise?

This is just my opinion, but if you're religious and you believe in ghosts, you just might not be faithful enough to your religion. I have yet to see a major modern religion that states you can stay on the Earth and interact with people. I consider demons, devils, and angels in religion to not be ghosts (they've transcended human qualities right?). Ghosts bring a more human aspect to mind. In fact, it sounds like it'd go against the will of the deity that you'd go to (the deity of your religion). Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, so correct me if you know of one. Maybe wicca has something like that....

[AuraTwilight]

But according to my theories, it should be possible to interact in some electrical manner. Ever heard of white noise?

Yes, and it's not real. White noise is the result of ambient static and electrical discharge being translated into sounds when a radio or whatever isn't tuned into a specific frequency, basically making it freak out. It only sounds like there might be voices because of that Pattern Finding Machine. Statistically, if you listen long enough, you're guaranteed to hear something that might sound like a human voice. To that end, institutes have recorded white noise that's supposed to sound like human voices and compare it to human whispers; the two weren't even in the same decibel range, meaning that no humans (or humanlike entities like a ghost) could have produced the white noise.

This is just my opinion, but if you're religious and you believe in ghosts, you just might not be faithful enough to your religion. I have yet to see a major modern religion that states you can stay on the Earth and interact with people. I consider demons, devils, and angels in religion to not be ghosts (they've transcended human qualities right?). Ghosts bring a more human aspect to mind. In fact, it sounds like it'd go against the will of the deity that you'd go to (the deity of your religion). Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, so correct me if you know of one. Maybe wicca has something like that....

You know nothing of religion. Pretty much all religions in the world except for Christianity and Islam allow for the existence of ghosts. Judaism, Buddhism, Paganism, Spiritualism, Hinduism, Jainism, Zorastrianism, Scientology, Shinto, Confuscianism...I can go on and on.

And Angels and Demons are not former humans. They did not "Transcend" human qualities because they never had them. In almost all mythologies that have them, angels are a creation of God's from before the physical universe, and are basically immortal, soulless servants that don't have free will. Demons are either a different class of entity, such as the creations of some opposing deity such as in Zorastrianism, or are rebellious angels. Now, this sort of makes a paradox with the free will thing, which is another reason why religion tends to be ****. Islam, atleast, attempts to make up for this by saying that the beings that rebelled against God, (the devil figure and his followers), are a second race of light beings called Djinn. Islam considers Angels the race of Light, which cannot disobey, Djinn, the race of Fire, who were doomed to servitude and suffering for their rebellion, and Humans, the race of Clay.

[shugo_lover]

Hmmm... it also annoys me because people are like ghosts are evil. Actually a ghost is anyone who has suffered a violant or sudden death. So some maybe evil and others not. My oppinion though is that its fake like all those super natrual shows. They just say that to make things more interesting.

[Altre]

Wow, this really sucks. I had a long defensive post typed out, but my connection keeps cutting off and I'm going insane. It would have explained/corrected everything that I said, but it's not worth the trouble to make a point and have it continually shot down by AT. No more input from me (unless this post is attacked).

[N3IWVC]

Let me start by saying I am both a man of science as well as a religious person. But as I see it regardless of what your standing is it's pointless to get too attached to it. If you believe in some god(s) then you already have the problem of not having perceivable proof of your beliefs. But even those that seek to prove things with science still have to rely on perception to do so. And it's already been pointed out several times in this thread that all human senses are imperfect and can be fooled. So keeping this in mind, nothing can truly and irrevocably be "proven". I don't think it's possible to positively "know" anything unless you know everything. That said, I do believe in the majority of things that I perceive. I just don't agree with all the wars carried out in the name of God or with anyone pushing their beliefs (religious or scientific) on anyone else when in truth they don't even know anything. That's not to say there shouldn't be things like school because one could say that's pushing scientific beliefs onto others. Because you should still work toward doing the best you can in whatever reality you're perceiving. Just don't get bent out of shape if someone disagrees with you or you don't understand something.