Obama's health care reform

[zaseo]

Obama has finally got his health care plan passed. The Republicans won't go down with a fight, but it looks like it is going to be in effect. Do you think it is a success, or an epic failure? Personally I think it will help some things, but it will fail horribly. America is spending like 900Billion+ on this. The USA doesn't need to be spending more, or else the USA would be making things worse. I give this idea the facepalm. I feel the USA is taking a step towards communism, or socialism.

[GyppyGirl2021]

This will not end well.

That's all I have to say on the subject XD

[Ranylyn]

My post will likely anger people buit it has to be said.

Computerized Voice: Flame Shield Activated.

Now, before I actually get started, for anyone who doesn't know: Obama's new healthcare program ISN'T UHC. It's a program to make private insurance companies cost less. I'm not certain WHY the change was, but given the baseless fears so many had, I'm assuming this is likely an attempt to ease people towards it rather than a radical overnight change causing unrest among the masses.

Every time anyone posts something pointing out the flaws in healthcare, I do have to chuckle. I live in Canada and thus our program is established and running, and I can definitely understand both sides of the coin. However, most of the anti-healthcare points that are often brought up are in fact a complete load of bull. Here's a few examples.


Anti HC: The poor people will clog up the emergency room with waiting times and I will die while waiting for a doctor!

My counter comment: This point is, at the very base, rooted in a slight degree truth: idiots who go to the ER over a cough do increase waiting times. However, it's a carrot growing from an apple seed. I say this because there are always doctors kept on standby for the real emergencies. You will not die while waiting for a doctor, they have reserve staff to save you if you lost a limb and need to stop the bleeding, for example. If you ever actually had to be rushed to the ER, you would know this. And I know this.

tldr version? The only people who'll die are those who can't get help at all, since they have reserve staff for real emergencuies, and I know from personal experience.


Anti HC: COMMUNIST!

My counter comment: Let me say this plainly, and slowly so you can understand me. You. Are. An. Idiot. I really do have to laugh at the average American's idea of "Democracy." since they think they run the country. They elect one man, who has the power to veto anyone else, including opposition to his plans. (I implore you all to remember the time Bush told the Congress "This is what I want and if you deny it I'll veto your decision.) In a sense it's a hybridization of Monarchy and Democracy.

So I look at Canadian politics, where the Prime Minister only has as much voice as the rest of his party on votes, and where it needs to pass the House of Commons AND the Senate without any Veto going on. We elect our local representatives, and the leader of the party who wins the most ridings overall is the new Prime Minister. And yet! Many Americans do not consider us to be a democracy because the highest level of government we have, the "Federal Government" has a name that says "Federation" which is somehow not a "democracy" when it clearly is. One could argue that we're more democratic since even at the highest levels of government there is no one person holding the reins.

Now, look at the ideas of deocracy. Canada is clearly not communist. Now look at Healthcare. Non Communist healthcare? I know, I know, for the shortsighted who can't see beyond themselves it's a bit of a shocker, and I'll point out another part in my next point.


Anti HC: CANADA HAS IT AND HAS HIGHER TAXES!

My counter argument: Look at the population, moron! We only have 34 million people paying taxes, and look how big Canada is! That's a lot of roads to be paved on such a small budget! Basically, it all boils down to our taxes being higher since we have fewer people paying taxes and thus the government had no choice but to implement the GST back in the 80s, IIRC. But hey, we've even had our taxes lowered 2% (so the grand total in Ontario is 13%) in the past few years, and Alberta in particular is rich with oil and thus there's ONLY GST there, no PST, so Alberta in fact has lower taxes than The United States.

My Estimate? You might be looking at a 1% hike, if that much. 2% tops.


Anti HC: Health services are a privelage, not a right!

My counter argument: Sure thing, tell me that with a straight face after you lose your job, break your leg and get your arm slashed up, require a difribulator to be installed due to heart problems, and can't afford anything from Blood transfusions to crutches. Seriously, get that stick out of there because everyone goes through slumps, and condemning them to die for not having the money at the time? What if it was you, or a loved one you couldn't spare the money for? You know it's bad when Mad Magazine jokes about it in their Spider Man issue and the doctors don't check Uncle Ben, but rather his wallet, see no credit cards, and declare him dead.


Anyways, point being, HC isn't bad or communist. You won't die because of it, and it will only save lives. If you're the type of person who goes to the ER over a god damn cough, you will suffer, but FFS, LEARN TO USE COUGH SYRUP! Also, it's not a matter of other people's health coming out of your pocket either. Tax dollars go to the goverment and it's theirs to spend as they see fit. Would people complain if they built a new museum? Of course people wouldn't, because it would not directly benefit the less fortunate. Now consider how a 5 million dollar museum's building budget can save thousands of lives, and now people have a problem with it?


tldr version: Anti Healthcare fanatics are spewing baseless propaganda without facts to back it up. Rather than look at how other countries who already have these systems fare, they make up baseless fears about their way of life being endangered and yelling communist. Please. I implore anyone reading this to stop and consider the facts. YES, there ARE flaws to healthcare. For example, due to costs, eye exams are no longer free in Canada, nor have they been for years. We do still pay for prescriptions and eyeglasses and the like. But point being... please, just step back and look at the whole picture, and not just what you may wish to see.

[Gemcrim]

Ranylyn is a wonderful person. (EDIT: So is Tolby apparently. They should mate and have several beautiful children who will spread love and peace around the world.) I love them with all the love I have in my heart. But yeah you pretty much sum up what I and I'm sure many others think (from what applies in your post since I'm not Canadian and such) and allow me to make a lazy short post to justify my vote. Thanks ~<3

[Tolby]

900 billion?! Y'all know how many anti terrorist freedom guns we could have bought with that money? Woo doggy.

[Erranty]

I'd be right there with crimson if it weren't for the fact that if it gets passed it will be illegal to not have health insurance.

I haven't needed it since I was 13 and got my foot sliced up. I don't need it now. So I'm on the standpoint of saying "Screw America, I'd rather live in Soviet Russia. At least THEY shot illegals trying to cross the border!"

[marthwmaster]

It's not like I am personally able to change anything anyway, so these situations are just more things I don't need to be stressing over.

I'm glad not everyone thinks this way. Even so, this opinion is far too popular.

[Gemcrim]

Still need the House vote so though I voted success I can't really say so just yet, so we'll wait and see what happens before debating each other further I suppose. Or not, since some of us are lazy apathetic losers.

[Gemcrim]

Still need the House vote so though I voted success I can't really say so just yet, so we'll wait and see what happens before debating each other further I suppose. Or not, since some of us are lazy apathetic losers.

You're just jealous, naturally.

I was referring to me. :v

...and allow me to make a lazy short post to justify my vote.

But now that you mention it... -3-

[AuraTwilight]

America is spending like 900Billion+ on this. The USA doesn't need to be spending more, or else the USA would be making things worse. I give this idea the facepalm. I feel the USA is taking a step towards communism, or socialism.

Do you have any idea how this country works at all? How economics works at all?

Money needs to be spent to fix the economy; not spending money only halts things. Jesus, don't you people watch South Park?

This health care reform is technically SAVING money. Please lrn2math.

You have no idea what the hell commmunism and socialism are, and this country's used socialized services since it's inception. If you don't want socialism, you're not allowed to call 911 in case of an Emergency anymore.

[AuraTwilight]

Shut the hell up, Crimson, I was subtly insulting Zaseo's intelligence and you ruined the joke, you pillowf*cker.

[AuraTwilight]

I've got a boyfriend. I'm not jealous of your pillows (they can't suck my dick or clean my house, ****).

[Gemcrim]

At times I wish I was a dolled-up pillow, also I've apparently been asleep for the past few days regarding the vote. (THIS WAS POSTED BECAUSE I APPARENTLY AM NOT ALLOWED TO EDIT MY EARLIER POSTS, THANKS BOARD!)

Edit: Ranylyn: For clarification I meant WITH Tolby ~<3
Silent: Yeah I saw, reason why I wanted to edit my earlier post.

[Ranylyn]

AT is right. When money is spent, it circulates and the economy flourishes. When it is hoarded, the money is not circulating and the economy tanks. This was the very theory behind the stimulus spending: pour money into the economy, which would then circulate, and create jobs due to more spending (stores hiring more workers, warehouses hiring more shipping staff/ laborers, etc, to keep up with the flow. These new workers would then have an income which they would then spend, further circulating it) and so on. At the very least it pays for itself since the taxes come back to the Government anyways, but some people, even two State Governors (I forget which ones off the top of my head) refused to accept the stimulus spending unless it could be aimed entirely at paying off the state's debt, which really makes me wonder if they took basic accounting, much less economics, in high school.

You know... I'm the kind of guy who cares too much and gives someone else the shirt off my back, but even I know that when you're drowning, you need to struggle to stay afloat and can't worry about others. What I'm saying is, AT is exactly right on the spending being good for the economy and this is not the time to be worrying about national debt.

(Also, thank you for wishing me many beautiful children, Gemcrim. I'm in no rush or anything but I am engaged, so we'll see? Also, off topic: Hells yeah Puck avatar. Berserk FTW. Also, seriously, I've been forced to double post a few times due to lack of editing....)

(EDIT @ Gemcrim: LOL! In all seriousness, sorry, not happening )

[S1lentOp]

I'd be right there with crimson if it weren't for the fact that if it gets passed it will be illegal to not have health insurance.

I haven't needed it since I was 13 and got my foot sliced up. I don't need it now. So I'm on the standpoint of saying "Screw America, I'd rather live in Soviet Russia. At least THEY shot illegals trying to cross the border!"

There's a reason it's called insurance. It's not there for you to use frequently; it's there for you to use when you need it, and eventually you will need it. Young people who don't think they need health insurance are part of the reason why costs are so high. It's short-sighted and irresponsible to think you're too healthy to get sick, and ultimately everyone else pays for it.

But it's true. It's popular because it's true. Even if I was personally active politically, it wouldn't make anyone ELSE active. Despite what people may say, one voice and one vote, especially from someone like me, isn't going to change ANYTHING. Unless you can find me the last time a political issue was perfectly split 50/50. Considering it's not even set up like that, it's impossible. In the end, my vote and my voice/opinion both mean nothing.

Yes, it's a shame that so many people feel that way and if EVERYONE who felt that way changed their minds, then it might make a difference. But they won't, so it won't. Don't blame us, though, blame the way the government is set up. One vote and one voice both do not count, so I'm not going to feel obligated to be involved in something I care nothing about if my activity would change nothing. It would just be giving myself even more stress than I have now and I would get nothing from it aside from being able to look down on everyone else that doesn't do what I do. Considering I look down on everyone else anyway, it is a fruitless effort for me.

There's a reason we have routine elections, and that is because people do still have a say in what goes on. There is a clear correlation between civic knowledge and a feeling of political efficacy. The more you know about the process and what you can do to participate, the more you begin to realize that people can make a difference. Governments only succeed in doing what it wants without consequence when the people ruled over feel powerless and don't participate. When citizens do participate, however, and advocate their interests we get changes like Social Security and the Civil Rights Act. Lobbyists and corporate businesses are powerful, but individuals can still organize to rival them. History is full of examples, especially American history. Ignorance of the process will make you feel powerless to participate in it. In the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Still need the House vote so though I voted success I can't really say so just yet, so we'll wait and see what happens before debating each other further I suppose. Or not, since some of us are lazy apathetic losers.

The bill has already passed in the House. They voted on it last Sunday and it was signed into law this morning. The only thing left is for the Reconciliation Bill to pass the Senate and also be signed, but regardless of what happens there the original Senate health care bill is already law.

I wouldn't use South Park as an example. Crap show is crap. Dropping pop culture references nonstop and trying to be witty does not make you relevant. South Park is like the 40 year old mom who is trying to still be cool by hanging out with her 14 year old daughter and her friends during their sleep-over. It's just sad at this point.

You are retarded. Besides, AT is right. Investment remedies recessions. Not spending only worsens a recession.

--
It's good that this health care bill finally passed. It's been long overdue.

[S1lentOp]

You forgot the part where I didn't care about politics. I tried to, I really did, but I just don't. You may dislike me for not caring about the same things you think I should, but it does nothing for me. Thus, any reason I would have for voting is "obligation", and no, my one vote would not make a difference in anything. I figure that the people will vote for what they think is best. They either make the right decision or the wrong decision, but it's going to be made either way. I never said that the people as a whole have no say, and if you took that from what I said then you need to read it more carefully. I just said my personal individual vote makes no difference, so since I don't care about it, I'm not going to bother.

Individual votes do matter, actually. If they didn't then it would be stupid to invest millions of dollars into campaigns. Hence my remarks about political efficacy. You may not care, but it still influences every aspect of your life and the lives of everyone else around you. You're by no means isolated from what goes on in the political sphere. You seem to think that individuals don't add up to constituencies. The "one vote doesn't matter" fallacy may be popular, but it is still a fallacy.

Furthermore, you are so just jealous.

Of what?

[Keyaki]

You are jealous of my existence. Don't lie. I know.

....uh...you sure you wanna go there? You pretty much digging your own grave right now.....:/

[Ranylyn]

Seriously, let's try to stay on topic, here, people. We don't need an off-topic argument or anything.

(Meh, Sorry if I sound like a mod. Old habits die hard. As is I'm trying to avoid telling specific people to knock it off )

Anyways, partially on topic: I see nothing wrong with choosing not to vote. There are multiple reasons, from corporeal (inability to make it to the polls due to work, etc, though in some countries everything is closed on election day so no one has the excuse of work) to the mental (Can't pick a single candidate to vote for, don't want to just guess and screw up. Not having enough of an interest to follow counts too, since let's face it: If you're not paying attention to the platforms the politions are presenting, what would your vote be? An uninformed choice, be it a whimsical guess or a biased "my family voted that guy so I will too.")

I personally didn't vote in our last election 2 years ago since I had just turned 18 and had not received my voter's information yet. This is another of the "corporeal" reasons, in the sense that it's a physical boundary that exists. Other physical boundaries could include injuries or lack of transportation. However, if you are able and capable of voting, you really should at least try to follow the campaigns a little bit during elections simply since a lack of informed voters leads to the less capable candidate getting a turn in office, which is never any fun for anyone, least of all, you. One vote or one voice may NOT affect much in the grand scheme of things, but when millions decide "screw it" that's when, and pardon my language, the **** ends up hitting the fan.

[zaseo]

Obama has valid points, but what I don't like is many ideas in the plan itself. A country do need to spend money for the economy, but that country has also got to make sure it doesn't go to waste. I will give it a try, but I think it will fail. Seems we are talking steps towards the left. I rather have be talking some steps to the right. The more left the more government control, and the more right people control.

Insurance of all kind is important. I will get that before anything else. I don't see how people like this can't have insurance. The world is always full of risk, and likely sooner, or later something will happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWuX2s7h55A

[Ranylyn]

Obama has valid points, but what I don't like is many ideas in the plan itself. A country do need to spend money for the economy, but that country has also got to make sure it doesn't go to waste. I will give it a try, but I think it will fail. Seems we are talking steps towards the left. I rather have be talking some steps to the right.

I do agree with you on this point. But I see why Obama did what he did.

UHC: Obama's original plan. I was more in favor of UHC myself (and before anyone says "You're not american so why should you care?" I'll answer that for you: My fiancee is american and so are some of my best friends, like my brother from an asian mother and another friend who is like a sister to me. We also haven't officially decided who's moving where after the wedding yet, so although she's leaning towards coming here, I may go there, so I do have an interest in what's best for those who are important to me.) but the simple fact of the matter is, the baseless fearmongering propaganda that was being spewed out kind of made this not so smart to implement immediately without a gradual transition, due to the fearful masses who believe some of the nonsense I explained away in my first post in this thread.

The New Plan: Making private insurance companies more affordable is closer to what the average American is used to. To quote Ankiseth Gallant from OgreBattle 64, "Radical changes cause unwanted distortions. Do you not see that your methods are nothing more than a temporary solution?" He's right, even if he is just a fictional character, and kudos to the script writer. I feel that even if this doesn't work out, it's at least a step in the right direction, to lean away from expensive private insurance that not everyone can afford and moing towards more of a system where everyone has Health Care, even if it's paid for out of your pockets instead of your taxes.


And no, Crimson, I clearly do not understand why you're derailing this thread with things like accusing people of being jealous of your existence, and nor do I want to. The words "Now is not the time or place for this" certainly come to mind. I don't want to single you out but it's pretty hard when you're doing that yourself. It's one thing to state your opinion and defend it, but please stay on topic and at least post something of relevance to the topic since this IS actually an important issue.