Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

[Satoh]

Still strikes me as iffy, especially since the only evidence the only evidence for the Asaba/Helba theory is the voice. By that logic, Natume is Aura.

You can't make an online character's offline character be an online character who has her own offline character...

[Kuukai]

Are you sure? I was pretty sure I read that in something official, and I thought it was Analysis.

I've never seen it. Feel free to doublecheck...

No reason to think she'd not have him hear her voice. Occam's Razor.

That doesn't work when we're already on an equally complex tangent. If we assume she's hiding her voice, she can do it however she wants.

Still strikes me as iffy, especially since the only evidence the only evidence for the Asaba/Helba theory is the voice. By that logic, Natume is Aura.

What part of "circumstantial evidence" don't you understand? Is it the part where nothing's contradicting it? Where she's in the right place at the right time? I'm not arguing for it, I'm arguing against being against it.

[Keyaki]

okie dokie

Time for my 2 cents!!

all silliness aside, imo there is no possible reason for Helba to be either Asaba nor Zelkova

Asaba, well b/c not only would that just suck so badly that i would swear off .Hack forever, but I just don't think Helba would ever show her face irl even though she does exist off line.

Zelkova b/c even though he may be the master of Net Slum and has "prohaxxor" skills

Also, there is something that Keyaki could do that Helba, no matter how high her hacking caliber is, she would never be able to do it.

Remember in Redemption after Haseo got the Xth Form, and Keyaki said that he just "tweaked" the bond between him and Skeith? It's been said many times in other threads, that the Xth Form is just a physical form that strengthens the bond between Haseo and Skeith. The bond between Haseo and Skeith is, like what Pai stated, is a connection far beyond the controller, its a mental/spiritual bond and when Haseo reconciled with Skeith after the Rebirth, Keyaki just picked up on it and gave the bond between Haseo and Skeith a physical form,

Bottom line, Keyaki was able to alter a spiritual/mental bond between a human and an AI, thats something no regular person can do, not even Helba, only something like an AI is able to do something that

Za Warudo records and collects people's emotional data, and those scenes have some emotional punch.

Well, you did say in another thread that The World may sometimes spontaneously somehow spit some of its emotional data that it collected from a player back in the game itself as a Vagrant AI of said play, maybe sometimes it doesn't eject them back into the game as an AI but as a " memorial digital playback" of the event that it recored, like in Mutation, when you go to the Hulle Granz Cathedral.

As for the former hackers, they lost the line between the game and reality, and began wandering the net in confusion. Basically, they got too "into" the game and couldn't find their way back.

wait, wait

are you saying that some of the AI residents in net Slum used to be hackers, who state of Liminality got so strong that their minds "entered" the The World as an AI and just started to wander the network until they find " The End" ? What about their irl selves?

[Satoh]

wait, wait

are you saying that some of the AI residents in net Slum used to be hackers, who state of Liminality got so strong that their minds "entered" the The World as an AI and just started to wander the network until they find " The End" ? What about their irl selves?

This is stated quite plainly by Tartarga... I believe in Outbreak. While I found it hard to believe myself... it is one of the few things that is DIRECTLY stated in the series...

Though Tartarga is a bit of a nut... maybe he was being cryptic... I don't know...

[Kuukai]

I just don't think Helba would ever show her face irl even though she does exist off line.

You think she's all locked up in a room somewhere?

Bottom line, Keyaki was able to alter a spiritual/mental bond between a human and an AI, thats something no regular person can do, not even Helba, only something like an AI is able to do something that

I don't think tweaking an Epitaph PC's Epitaph PC-ness is any less humanly possible than creating them in the first place, and since Amagi is a human...

are you saying that some of the AI residents in net Slum used to be hackers, who state of Liminality got so strong that their minds "entered" the The World as an AI and just started to wander the network until they find " The End" ? What about their irl selves?

That's exactly right. Their irl fate is left ambiguous.

[Satoh]

Bottom line, Keyaki was able to alter a spiritual/mental bond between a human and an AI, thats something no regular person can do, not even Helba, only something like an AI is able to do something that

I don't think tweaking an Epitaph PC's Epitaph PC-ness is any less humanly possible than creating them in the first place, and since Amagi is a human...

Well... Amagi went insane when he tried to use the dummy program though...am I wrong?

[Kuukai]

Keyaki didn't create a new Skeith or something, he simply modified the existing connection between Skeith and a PC, a connection established by Amagi.

[Satoh]

Keyaki didn't create a new Skeith or something, he simply modified the existing connection between Skeith and a PC, a connection established by Amagi.

Hmm... I see... I'm sure I can dispute the possibility of simply changing a mental and spiritual connection with a little hacking... but....

By the way... is your name referenced to Gaignun in any way...?

[Kuukai]

Maybe he has a funny definition of "a little." At any rate, if one guy can completely reconstruct the 8 phases and embed them in PCs to be controlled by users and tap their abilities in a way never done "naturally" (Sora was more or less the other way around), it's definitely possible for someone else to simply repair the PC and tap a bit further into that potential now that the Phase is actually cooperating...

Not directly, but we got our names from the same guy. He spells it Kookai though. Vector, bringing you a tomorrow without spelling or grammar checkers. Here the Future.

[AuraTwilight]

You can't make an online character's offline character be an online character who has her own offline character...

I know that. I'm saying that basing identities of characters purely off the voice is absurd.

That doesn't work when we're already on an equally complex tangent. If we assume she's hiding her voice, she can do it however she wants.

Atleast there's precedent throughout the whole series for voice changers, so why reinvent the wheel?

What part of "circumstantial evidence" don't you understand? Is it the part where nothing's contradicting it? Where she's in the right place at the right time? I'm not arguing for it, I'm arguing against being against it.

I understand it, I just find it silly. It just seems much too out of character for Helba to me. I guess I'm just giving Helba's character and the writers too much credit, or something.

Well, you did say in another thread that The World may sometimes spontaneously somehow spit some of its emotional data that it collected from a player back in the game itself as a Vagrant AI of said play, maybe sometimes it doesn't eject them back into the game as an AI but as a " memorial digital playback" of the event that it recored, like in Mutation, when you go to the Hulle Granz Cathedral.

It's the same general idea. Emotional Data isn't funneled into Aura for whatever reason, so it becomes independent, whether as some sort of ghostly phenomena, or as an AI.

wait, wait

are you saying that some of the AI residents in net Slum used to be hackers, who state of Liminality got so strong that their minds "entered" the The World as an AI and just started to wander the network until they find " The End" ? What about their irl selves?

They suffered the same fate as Harald Hoerwick. They abandoned their bodies, and their fragmented minds were left in Za Warudo.

This is stated quite plainly by Tartarga... I believe in Outbreak.

Mutation, actually.

[Keyaki]

You think she's all locked up in a room somewhere?

I'm not saying that, I'm just saying her irl appearance is unknown, like with Watari after he took responsibility fo the Twilight Incident

He got rid of all contacts, etc b/c he didn't want anyone to find him, Helba probably did the same thing

he simply modified the existing connection between Skeith and a PC, a connection established by Amagi.

He did not, *sigh*

Amagi didn't make connection, all he did was integrate what left of the original data of the Epitaph of Skeith with a regular PC body data.

Once the right Chosen one awakens his Avatar there is a mental/spiritual bond that goes beyond the monitor and thats what Keyaki alter when he extend Haseo tot he Xth Form, he gave the mental/spiritual bond between Haseo and Skeith a physical form

Mind you, at that time Haseo was still on the verge of loosing consciousness after the Rebirth irl, you really think just changing the data fusion between an AI and the data of a regular PC body will bring Haseo from loosing consciousness irl?

They suffered the same fate as Harald Hoerwick. They abandoned their bodies, and their fragmented minds were left in Za Warudo.

thats so COOL!!!!!

But weird, does that go for all of the Net Slum residents? I thought they were just failed AI experiments from the Black box system that just wandered the network until either Morganna got rid of them b/c their wondering led them to become close to being an illegitimate Ultimate AI or until they find Net Slum and stop wandering...........

[Kuukai]

Actually, no. Sheraton, Plaird and Jinn (in order below), the three with corrupt but otherwise normal PCs, are the hackers who roleplayed as AIs and eventually got lost in it. The whole thing wouldn't really work without "real" AIs for them to emulate in the first place.

That doesn't work when we're already on an equally complex tangent. If we assume she's hiding her voice, she can do it however she wants.

Atleast there's precedent throughout the whole series for voice changers, so why reinvent the wheel?

Wow, using it only some of the time!!! It's such a major jump! Quick, someone get that idea a U.S. patent!

You think she's all locked up in a room somewhere?

I'm not saying that, I'm just saying her irl appearance is unknown, like with Watari after he took responsibility fo the Twilight Incident

He got rid of all contacts, etc b/c he didn't want anyone to find him, Helba probably did the same thing

So, as opposed to locking herself up in a room, you're saying she has no friends, no day job, and lives alone, in order to avoid suspicion?

Amagi didn't make connection, all he did was integrate what left of the original data of the Epitaph of Skeith with a regular PC body data.

After a great deal of trial and error the team finally succeeded in attaching the Morganna Factor to a character in "The World." This completed prototype became known as an Epitaph User, so named for Morganna's eight Phases of the Epitaph. The one we completed first was called the Epitaph User of Propagation. However no one involved in the project, not even myself or Amagai could use one of these characters.

The connection between PC and Avatar was formed before the first player used it, and it's the vehicle for that player connection as well. I don't see how you get from adjusting the linkup to "delving into your soul and changing things." I think it's just as likely he simply adjusted this connectiong while SKeith and Haseo were so attuned.

I know that. I'm saying that basing identities of characters purely off the voice is absurd.

And I'm saying I'm not. Otherwise I'd be claiming that they're both in actuality Emma Wielant, who rose from her grave to do office work in Japan, and terrorize The World, and hack herself

[Satoh]

I believe you're all confusing the link between the PC body and the epitaphs with the link between the player and the epitaph PCs.

Amagi created a link between the PC data and the Epitaph data... The Epitaph data creates a link with a player on its own... Why else would Yata et al. have to LOOK for the Epitaph PCs? Also when Shino was still awake, she was the Mirage of Deceit, but once she was comatose, Innis moved itself to *shudder* Atoli.

So, the spiritual link is something formed by the avatars themselves. Amagi only wrote some code to piece the Morganna data back into a working program... genius programmer maybe, but not on the level of Harald, whom could pseudo-psychically link players to the game.

And I agree that the Asaba theory is silly, and not plausible, but it IS possible.



I'd like to point out something I found interesting about Kaotin... her name is spelled カオちん, this leads me to believe it is meant to be Kao-chin, like Yuki-chin, because it uses both katakana and hiragana. This is typically done when attaching an honorific to a foreign name or one spelled in an unconventional means.

[Kuukai]

I believe you're all confusing the link between the PC body and the epitaphs with the link between the player and the epitaph PCs.

Amagi created a link between the PC data and the Epitaph data... The Epitaph data creates a link with a player on its own... Why else would Yata et al. have to LOOK for the Epitaph PCs? Also when Shino was still awake, she was the Mirage of Deceit, but once she was comatose, Innis moved itself to *shudder* Atoli.

So, the spiritual link is something formed by the avatars themselves.

How is that not what I said?

Amagi only wrote some code to piece the Morganna data back into a working program... genius programmer maybe, but not on the level of Harald, whom could pseudo-psychically link players to the game.

First of all, that's not true, read the Terminal Disc quote in my last post. I can't think of anything that contradicts that, so I'm going to have to take Jun's word for it. Secondly, you're opening a whole can of worms with the Harald thing. It's not necessarily that he did it so much as being able to cross boundaries like that is just how the universe operates in the world of .hack. That said, if you are convinced that it was all Harald's doing, then that would also dispel the current argument about Keyaki...

I'd like to point out something I found interesting about Kaotin... her name is spelled カオちん, this leads me to believe it is meant to be Kao-chin, like Yuki-chin, because it uses both katakana and hiragana. This is typically done when attaching an honorific to a foreign name or one spelled in an unconventional means.

"-chin" is a cute-ish suffix, just like "-tan" (from "Moe-tan", etc.) As a suffix it's script independent from the name, like with -san. I'd romanize it Kao-chin...

[Satoh]

That said, if you are convinced that it was all Harald's doing, then that would also dispel the current argument about Keyaki...

Whoa, no, that isn't what I meant at all, I was saying that connecting the mind and character of players is something that only Harald's system could do, and that attaching a program to a PC isn't even close.

I'd like to point out something I found interesting about Kaotin... her name is spelled カオちん, this leads me to believe it is meant to be Kao-chin, like Yuki-chin, because it uses both katakana and hiragana. This is typically done when attaching an honorific to a foreign name or one spelled in an unconventional means.

"-chin" is a cute-ish suffix, just like "-tan" (from "Moe-tan", etc.) As a suffix it's script independent from the name, like with -san. I'd romanize it Kao-chin...

Yeah that's my point... I can't believe they'd translate it so badly is my point...

[Keyaki]

After a great deal of trial and error the team finally succeeded in attaching the Morganna Factor to a character in "The World." This completed prototype became known as an Epitaph User, so named for Morganna's eight Phases of the Epitaph. The one we completed first was called the Epitaph User of Propagation. However no one involved in the project, not even myself or Amagai could use one of these characters.

The connection between PC and Avatar was formed before the first player used it, and it's the vehicle for that player connection as well. I don't see how you get from adjusting the linkup to "delving into your soul and changing things." I think it's just as likely he simply adjusted this connectiong while SKeith and Haseo were so attuned.

I give up...........

if what you say is true, how do you explain Haseo collecting himself? And pulling himself out of the verge of comatose

How is that not what I said?

It seems like your just saying that the Xth Form is just a altered form of the connection between Haseo's PC and Skeith and has nothing to do with the bond Haseo has with Skeith

Actually, no. Sheraton, Plaird and Jinn (in order below), the three with corrupt but otherwise normal PCs, are the hackers who role played as AIs and eventually got lost in it. The whole thing wouldn't really work without "real" AIs for them to emulate in the first place.

So why do their " PC"s look all broken? Or did they just make it that way to make it more convincing? And since that's the case? what about their irl selves?

[AuraTwilight]

I give up...........

if what you say is true, how do you explain Haseo collecting himself? And pulling himself out of the verge of comatose

What I think Kuukai's saying is that by bonding the Epitaphs to the PCs, and because of the PCs' picky dispositions, Amagi, partly accidentally, created the psychic link that all Epitaph Users must have with their PCs. Butsince all humans are different and because the Epitaphs are so diverse, the matches made allow for possibilities Amagi didn't really plan for, especially post-RA Plan when the Epitaphs ran off and did their own thing. As for Haseo, he's commented as having an exceptionally strong will. He pulled himself out of a coma partly due to his own willpower, partly due to Zelkova's hacking. Just like when Haseo shook off AIDA Infection. It was his own will that made this happen, not his connection to Skeith (though whether Skeith had some part in this, like amplifying the capability of Haseo's will in warping Za Warudo, is debatable).

It seems like your just saying that the Xth Form is just a altered form of the connection between Haseo's PC and Skeith and has nothing to do with the bond Haseo has with Skeith

Basically. Skeith and Haseo ARE closer, now, but that's due to the power of Haseo's own heart than anything Zelkova did.

So why do their " PC"s look all broken? Or did they just make it that way to make it more convincing? And since that's the case? what about their irl selves?

The hackers probably made their PCs look like that for their roleplaying. Their IRL selves are probably in a coma or dead.

[Kuukai]

Yeah, pretty much what AT said.

That said, if you are convinced that it was all Harald's doing, then that would also dispel the current argument about Keyaki...

Whoa, no, that isn't what I meant at all, I was saying that connecting the mind and character of players is something that only Harald's system could do, and that attaching a program to a PC isn't even close.

And if a human created that system, and altering said connection is a lesser feat, a human should be capable of it, no?

It seems like your just saying that the Xth Form is just a altered form of the connection between Haseo's PC and Skeith and has nothing to do with the bond Haseo has with Skeith

It's not even entirely clear what Keyaki is talking about, but even interpreting it your way I do think that you could adjust the latter by adjusting the former. Does altering the size of a pipe alter the amount of water that can flow through it? Yes. It's the same thing one way or another, that's what I'm saying.

The hackers probably made their PCs look like that for their roleplaying. Their IRL selves are probably in a coma or dead.

Yeah, they hacked their appearance so they could roleplay AIs, I'm not sure I'd my any claims about their real life state, though...

[Satoh]

The hackers probably made their PCs look like that for their roleplaying. Their IRL selves are probably in a coma or dead.

Yeah, they hacked their appearance so they could roleplay AIs, I'm not sure I'd my any claims about their real life state, though...

Ok, so what are the TV headed dudes in Netslum Tartarga? AIs? Players? Really weird-ass NPCs? Combination of all of those?

Some of them act like players... others just spout cryptic nonsense... and some are shopkeeper NPCs... or at least it seems... but one thing is oddly consistent... their appearance... WHY do they ALL appear that way? They must be connected in some way to all be like that.

[Kuukai]

No idea, though iirc some of them are probably new incarnations of past AIs, like Tartarga itself, since they share names with R:1 AIs. In original Net Slum, though, the fake AIs are the just things that only look like corrupted PCs. All the more exotic ones are all Vargant AIs. This is a little different from how Vagrant AIs are portrayed in other works, but analysis labels the three that were hackers and in the games this rule seems to apply.