dothackers.net

Hey, I joined because I have a red-hot inferno of a burning question, or perhaps nothing more that a blazing desire for a fiery discussion.

Having played all of the games up to Reminisce (I just beat it! Ovan makes no sense!) and just beginning my viewing of SIGN, I feel constantly intrigued by the very concept of the Lost Ones. Here's what I'm thinking:

When Morganna/AIDA... Let's call it "absorbs" players into the game, would it be far off to consider this downloading the human consciousness? Perhaps it would, what exactly is she/it doing? Here are some thoughts on the possibilities--I'll try to make it brief:

1. Downloading
When we download a program, we are essentially making a copy of data on the internet onto our computers. The original data is still on whatever server we got it from, unchanged. If this is similar to what happens in The World, there needs to be an extra step. Once a Lost One wakes up, most seem to retain memories of what happened in The World (the first AIDA server incident, though I'm still not sure about the characters from IMOQ or Tsukasa, are they different? The player behind Haseo is an obvious exception, and it's true the result vary). So if Morganna/AIDA makes a copy of a player's consciousness, is the changed data then uploaded back into the mind of the player? This raises so many interesting questions, but I better stop myself from writing a dissertation...

2. Stealing
Rather than make a copy, simply rip the mind of a player into The World. All of the possibilities raise the question of how exactly renegade AI encodes human thought into data, but this one really makes me wonder. It seems like this is what the .hack creators may have had in mind, but I really don't like it, it makes much less sense than the downloading thing. As I understand it the players in comas are experiencing The World while comatose, but that doesn't really take into account just how the transfer from real to digital takes place.

I had one more but I forgot it. So tell me people, is any of this substantial or is the whole thing the biggest plot-hole ever?

..................................... too much time on hands... lol im kidding i do that allot. welcome my freind and , long story short the lost ones are merely data that is trapped inside the game, in "the World" it is believed ur character and you are linked, which due to internueral brain waves is true.the waves connecting player and character are essential, lost ones are merely those brainwaves sealed into the caracter after being HACKED.. by the Aida// morganna factors. hope u understand.

I guess you could say it's more along the lines of "cutting" instead of "downloading". But I'm sure one of the mods would be able to answer more knowledgably.

I doubt the lost ones are "downloaded". The probably have the same connection between their body and their PC as Tsukasa or the players on the AIDA servers had, so if their bodies die, they die as well. Only some actually transfered their consciousness into the game, e.g. Harald and those hackers in Netslum.

CC2 really has to cover the latter.

In all honesty I COULD awnser your question happy. Unfortunatly, It would be mostly higher level math and medical termonology. If that is still okay i will put up what happens.

It was already revelaed that AIDA cause comas by transfering to the person's real life body and supressing their brain activity. Thats how it works now. The first types of comas were a little less clear.

Yes, AIDA do suppress brain activity, and somehow cause a psychic link between the victim and the AIDA Hive Mind.

As for the original comas, that's more simple than people give it credit for. The attacker (Morganna or whoever), scares and tricks the mind into thinking it's within Za Warudo, then they're pulled in because the mind is wherever it believes it is. Famous Mimiru example. "Bear...your hands, they're sweaty. What happens if we die here?" She is not Data Drained, she has not yet heard the A Note, or anything. She's simply scared, and for a brief moment, paranoia grips her and she can honest to God feel things like Tsukasa. If she were killed, even by a normal attack, it'd put her in a coma.

After all, according to Yata, Earth is no more real than Za Warudo. They're both illusions.

I doubt the lost ones are "downloaded". The probably have the same connection between their body and their PC as Tsukasa or the players on the AIDA servers had, so if their bodies die, they die as well. Only some actually transfered their consciousness into the game, e.g. Harald and those hackers in Netslum.

Everyone except the AIDA victims are pulled within the game, even Sieg and Orca. As Mai comments when Tomonari's heartrate shoots up: "Maybe he's still in there....fighting for his life."

In all honesty I COULD awnser your question happy. Unfortunatly, It would be mostly higher level math and medical termonology.

I call bullsh*t, since you can't even spell "answer."

AuraTwilight wrote:Yes, AIDA do suppress brain activity, and somehow cause a psychic link between the victim and the AIDA Hive Mind.

Wasn't that only unique to orignial Tri-Edge AIDA victims?

Jimbob wrote:

AuraTwilight wrote:Yes, AIDA do suppress brain activity, and somehow cause a psychic link between the victim and the AIDA Hive Mind.

Wasn't that only unique to orignial Tri-Edge AIDA victims?

No.
That's a condition that affects anyone who is PK'd by AIDA-PC's or AIDA itself.
Or taken over by AIDA.

Really? Does anyone other than Shino and  Aina say this?

No, but all of the AIDA are "connected", and they all share pretty much the same properties. Alkaid also seems to imply it with her total understanding of what's going on when she wakes up.

AuraTwilight wrote:Yes, AIDA do suppress brain activity, and somehow cause a psychic link between the victim and the AIDA Hive Mind.

As for the original comas, that's more simple than people give it credit for. The attacker (Morganna or whoever), scares and tricks the mind into thinking it's within Za Warudo, then they're pulled in because the mind is wherever it believes it is. Famous Mimiru example. "Bear...your hands, they're sweaty. What happens if we die here?" She is not Data Drained, she has not yet heard the A Note, or anything. She's simply scared, and for a brief moment, paranoia grips her and she can honest to God feel things like Tsukasa. If she were killed, even by a normal attack, it'd put her in a coma.

After all, according to Yata, Earth is no more real than Za Warudo. They're both illusions.

I doubt the lost ones are "downloaded". The probably have the same connection between their body and their PC as Tsukasa or the players on the AIDA servers had, so if their bodies die, they die as well. Only some actually transfered their consciousness into the game, e.g. Harald and those hackers in Netslum.

Everyone except the AIDA victims are pulled within the game, even Sieg and Orca. As Mai comments when Tomonari's heartrate shoots up: "Maybe he's still in there....fighting for his life."

Ah, it seems I need to finish the games and the series before I can have an informed discussion about this. I'm disappointed to learn how... Metaphysical this is. I almost feel like the creators were missing a huge opportunity to raise and tackle questions about the human mind. It could've been a less uptight exploration of some of the concepts in Ghost in the Shell without all of the lame 80's fashions. Doesn't anyone think that using such a spiritual explanation when dealing with computer data is a bit of a misstep? I'm always drawn to the project because of the concept but like so many critics have said I see unrealized potential.

Oh my, I've started whining much too soon. Anyway from what Jimbob and AuraTwilight have said, concerning only AIDA, it sounds like a computer virus manifest into a crazy neurological virus through (I assume) the A/V immersion that is the M2D. Have I inadvertently spoiled for myself what was supposed to be a revelation?

Thank for for responding, maybe I'll revisit this once I know what I'm talking about, which should be... October?! Aw man...

Anyone know of any threads that explain which of the canon series' are essential to see/read/play? Probably the games and SIGN, right? Please don't say LotT...

Ah, it seems I need to finish the games and the series before I can have an informed discussion about this. I'm disappointed to learn how... Metaphysical this is. I almost feel like the creators were missing a huge opportunity to raise and tackle questions about the human mind.

You kind've contradicted yourself. These metaphysics ARE tackling questions of the human mind, following those laid out by the principles of Anthroposophy.

Doesn't anyone think that using such a spiritual explanation when dealing with computer data is a bit of a misstep?

If you seriously think that, you haven't watched enough of the series. The entire series is about consciousness, not computers. (And it's not so much spiritual as it is psychic. There's still no concrete evidence of a "soul" in .hack, since the mind never technically leaves the brain.)

Hell, the whole reason everything in .hack is happening because one guy wanted to use a spiritual discipline to unite Man and Machine to honor his dead crush (whom was a highly spiritual Theosophist).

Oh my, I've started whining much too soon. Anyway from what Jimbob and AuraTwilight have said, concerning only AIDA, it sounds like a computer virus manifest into a crazy neurological virus through (I assume) the A/V immersion that is the M2D. Have I inadvertently spoiled for myself what was supposed to be a revelation?

Well, the AIDA aren't really a virus, but no, you haven't spoiled too much. They're not infecting the brain like some kind of disease, but basically "jumping in" to the brain the same way Tsukasa dived into Za Warudo.

Anyone know of any threads that explain which of the canon series' are essential to see/read/play? Probably the games and SIGN, right? Please don't say LotT...

Stuff that's essential? I'd say AI Buster (novel), Sign (anime), The games, Another Birth (4 books), Roots (anime), and the LotT manga.

And don't act like it's a bad thing. The anime version of it sucked, but the manga is actually a lot better than people give it credit for. It also provides some important information about Aura's psyche, fleshing her out as more than a plot device.

AuraTwilight wrote:

Ah, it seems I need to finish the games and the series before I can have an informed discussion about this. I'm disappointed to learn how... Metaphysical this is. I almost feel like the creators were missing a huge opportunity to raise and tackle questions about the human mind.

You kind've contradicted yourself. These metaphysics ARE tackling questions of the human mind, following those laid out by the principles of Anthroposophy.

Sorry, I meant to add "in a digital age." You know, like GitS.

Doesn't anyone think that using such a spiritual explanation when dealing with computer data is a bit of a misstep?

If you seriously think that, you haven't watched enough of the series. The entire series is about consciousness, not computers. (And it's not so much spiritual as it is psychic. There's still no concrete evidence of a "soul" in .hack, since the mind never technically leaves the brain.)

Hell, the whole reason everything in .hack is happening because one guy wanted to use a spiritual discipline to unite Man and Machine to honor his dead crush (whom was a highly spiritual Theosophist).

I was afraid of that. Well I'll get to watching then.

And don't act like it's a bad thing. The anime version of it sucked, but the manga is actually a lot better than people give it credit for. It also provides some important information about Aura's psyche, fleshing her out as more than a plot device.

The anime was terrible! But that's really all I've seen, so if I get the chance I'll give it a read.