Tasogare no Sho?! (Book of Twilight)

[AuraTwilight]

I hope I can find it right now. It was deleted 3 years ago. But I suggest you go to CC's official BBS and ask there, the people there can prove my words are true ( isuppose you can read Japanese right?). Not to mention Harold has to rewarded, cosnider the poem is incomplete. 3 chapters were lost. If he don't do soemthing, he is going to have gaps in his programe.

Doesn't mean Harald Edited it. The Epitaph was a whole novel, and it wouldn't be practical for the .hack team to show us the whole thing and claim "This is everything Emaa wrote." They leave it intentionally ambiguous so they can make up basically whatever they need to to fit the story, such as Avatat Fidchell's Prophecy and the pieces of the Epitaph in Another Birth. Harald included the entire unedited Epitaph. To say otherwise s to say he's contradicting the entire basis of his goals, and thus, the entire SERIES as a whole.

It has nothing to do with where Aura went.

Yes it does. You haven't even beaten the game yet, Kuukai, so you don't know yet, and telling you the relation would be a spoiler. When you finish the entire game and then talk to me, then sure.

No, it was an act of love towards her mother, and her selfless sacrifice of her own individuality was the last piece of growth needed for her to be born as the Ultimate AI. A wiser Aura says, "All great works are built upon self-sacrifice." And as Wiseman noted, it's like apoptosis: a piece had to die for the whole to be born. He's usually both, "so close to the point and so very far away at the same time," according to Ovan, but that time I think he nailed it. Even Jun agrees. Yay!

It's both, then. .hack is full of coincidences like this, anyway, so woohoo.

True, but that doesn't excuse Harold from chaging the order of events. Helba lost her abode according to Emma's writing, but Net Slum stand untill the very end.

Um, excuse me? Harald isn't responsible for Net Slum, asshole. He doesn't control anything in Za Warudo except for it's creation, the Harald Rooms, and the Painful Forest. Afterall, Morganna's very existence and everything that went wrong as a result was a total accident he had no foresight of, which includes the bulk of the games, the entirety of .hack//SIGN and .hack//GU, Kite's ascension to heroism, Cubia's birth, etc.

It's not fair to blame him for any of this when all he did was build Fragment and upload his mind as an AI.

[Kuukai]

True, but that doesn't excuse Harold from chaging the order of events. Helba lost her abode according to Emma's writing, but Net Slum stand untill the very end.
We also see no one that represent Lilith in a total of 4 encounters with Cubia.
And the part about Monkey that Wears Men's Hat is "literally" changed when Harold recited that stanza himself.

It may not have to be 1to1 prophecy, but these are very obvious chnages.

Harold made changes, there is no excuse.

Umm, like I said, I dont really think it's any sort of prophecy. It's just in there, and some things related to it end up happening because of that... That doesn't mean he changed anything.

In my opinion, the Omni-Tolerance is just a small barrier created for protection. If Kite had the bracelet, he could DD Corbenik at that point, turn it into an lvl1 Epitaph stone, and would be able to decrease it's HP to 0 and kill it. But, since the bracelet was gone, the barrier had to be broken by other means, and the battle just continued. The eye form is because Morganna started acting on Corbenik directly, instead of Corbenik being just a piece of her with an own mind.

Well, at that point Corbenik=Morganna, since it's the only element of her left. But yes, I agree, I think the shield part of Corbenik was the armor, the "infinite hp" part that Kite would have to data drain.

Yes it does. You haven't even beaten the game yet, Kuukai, so you don't know yet, and telling you the relation would be a spoiler. When you finish the entire game and then talk to me, then sure.

And you haven't played it at all. It's pretty much an even tradeoff. I don't know the ending yet, but I have a much deeper grasp of what's happened in the first two thirds of the game. Aura returned to the  sea of data, and slept, becoming nothing more than The World's "normal" system. At least that's what she said and Yata extrapolated on. Anything that happens after that you can put spoiler tags around. I don't need to read it, the point of this part of discussion is just to set the record straight on what happened, one way or the other.

It's both, then. .hack is full of coincidences like this, anyway, so woohoo.

It was... both? Do you even remember what you said? She isn't sacrificing herself to save her mother and also to kill her mother, that doesn't make any sense. Kite could have killed Corbenik, though then perhaps Aura wouldn't have ever been truly born. Either that or it would trigger a system reset and everything would start all over again... It doesn't really matter, though, as long as why she did what she did is clear.

[Procyon]

Kuukai! *Gets the urge to PM stalk* I'll prod you later. But download MSN, dammit. *Glomps*

And to be somewhat on topic, does anyone else find Aura a bit peculiar? She's always doing strange things. I think she's psycho. The next .hack games should be about Aura taking her Goddessly Wrath on The World. X3

[TheSorrow]

Kuukai! *Gets the urge to PM stalk* I'll prod you later. But download MSN, dammit. *Glomps*

And to be somewhat on topic, does anyone else find Aura a bit peculiar? She's always doing strange things. I think she's psycho. The next .hack games should be about Aura taking her Goddessly Wrath on The World. X3

As seen in LottB and GU, she likes to play with people, usually testing them. She's as psycho as any normal person would be, except she has a mind worth of a god.

[ashlay]

Kuukai! *Gets the urge to PM stalk* I'll prod you later. But download MSN, dammit. *Glomps*

And to be somewhat on topic, does anyone else find Aura a bit peculiar? She's always doing strange things. I think she's psycho. The next .hack games should be about Aura taking her Goddessly Wrath on The World. X3

do you know what a B it is to be a god of something? you'll undoubted start acting a little crazy, even if you don't realise/admit how much power you have.

case in point:

-_-b


though to be fair to Aura (and somewhat more on topic), she certainly seemed to just want to be a normal kind of person/PC in The World (udeden). which she really doesn't get. besides, you try being an experimental self-aware AI made in part by using the data of millions of japanese gamers and see if you're not a little eccentric.

[Kouen]

Kuukai! *Gets the urge to PM stalk* I'll prod you later. But download MSN, dammit. *Glomps*

And to be somewhat on topic, does anyone else find Aura a bit peculiar? She's always doing strange things. I think she's psycho. The next .hack games should be about Aura taking her Goddessly Wrath on The World. X3

As seen in LottB and GU, she likes to play with people, usually testing them. She's as psycho as any normal person would be, except she has a mind worth of a god.

Well in terms of Aura, I'd like to say that she's experimenting with what would happen if she did certain things. She's curious and wants to know what would happen if she did things such as give the bracelet to Shugo and  slept in Ovan's arm.

Also Kuukai, I think AT has already beaten the game.

Ashlay, you win an internet, if I had a point system I'd give you some points. ._.

[AuraTwilight]

And you haven't played it at all. It's pretty much an even tradeoff. I don't know the ending yet, but I have a much deeper grasp of what's happened in the first two thirds of the game. Aura returned to the sea of data, and slept, becoming nothing more than The World's "normal" system. At least that's what she said and Yata extrapolated on. Anything that happens after that you can put spoiler tags around. I don't need to read it, the point of this part of discussion is just to set the record straight on what happened, one way or the other.

I may not have played it, but I've absorbed enough spoilers to know it almost as well as someone who's beaten it, give or take a few details. What I do know (unless I've been utterly lied to, KADAAJU >_>) is that  Aura has been in Ovan's Arm the entire time, or atleast the Corbenic Epitaph's arm, and has been acting as the normal system in Za Warudo from there. It's still data, so I guess you could say it's still part of the sea. The point of the matter is that Ovan has two Keys, one for each Arm. Aura, the Key of the Twilight, in one arm, and an AIDA, the Key of Variant, in the other.

It was... both? Do you even remember what you said? She isn't sacrificing herself to save her mother and also to kill her mother, that doesn't make any sense. Kite could have killed Corbenik, though then perhaps Aura wouldn't have ever been truly born. Either that or it would trigger a system reset and everything would start all over again... It doesn't really matter, though, as long as why she did what she did is clear.

I guess you're right. Though if Aura wanted to protect her mother she wouldn't have given Kite the Bracelet in the first place.

And to be somewhat on topic, does anyone else find Aura a bit peculiar? She's always doing strange things. I think she's psycho. The next .hack games should be about Aura taking her Goddessly Wrath on The World. X3

Well, she is supposed to be human, so she gets bored and requires stimulation like the rest of us. You'd probably do similar things in her exact position.



That post wins.

though to be fair to Aura (and somewhat more on topic), she certainly seemed to just want to be a normal kind of person/PC in The World (udeden). which she really doesn't get. besides, you try being an experimental self-aware AI made in part by using the data of millions of japanese gamers and see if you're not a little eccentric.

Yea, from what it seems, she originally left in the first place because she didn't like being treated as a God.

Also Kuukai, I think AT has already beaten the game.

He hasn't. I bug him about it on a near hourly basis. Ask him yourself. XD

Ashlay, you win an internet, if I had a point system I'd give you some points. ._.

Allow me to do the honors, then. Ashlay, you get a piece of tissue I sneezed in, which, since it contains MY super-snot, is valuable enough to buy the entire planet of Venus with enough left over to classify you as a millionare.

[ashlay]

such as give the bracelet to Shugo

I thought the impetus for giving Shugo the bracelet was to draw him back into the game, and closer to aura....and that whole thing with her children...in which case I might go a bit with you on the "see what happens" theory since she tried to make her own AIs.

still, seemed to me Shugo got the kite character and then the bracelet more because he was Aura's first friend, and she missed him.

[AuraTwilight]

Yes, but at the SAME time it was one of her playtests. Either way you look at it it's a bid to get more data so she could keep growing.

[Kuukai]

Or something, she was being whimsical.

I may not have played it, but I've absorbed enough spoilers to know it almost as well as someone who's beaten it, give or take a few details. What I do know (unless I've been utterly lied to, KADAAJU >_>) is that  Aura has been in Ovan's Arm the entire time, or atleast the Corbenic Epitaph's arm, and has been acting as the normal system in Za Warudo from there. It's still data, so I guess you could say it's still part of the sea. The point of the matter is that Ovan has two Keys, one for each Arm. Aura, the Key of the Twilight, in one arm, and an AIDA, the Key of Variant, in the other.

Hmm, according to Kadaaju, he never said that. Maybe you misunderstood.  Fidchell's prophecy, the only place where this is mentioned, is that  a new twilight of the gods will be brought about by the man whose  left arm is the Key of the Variant and right arm is the Key of the Twilight. This is simply a cryptic way of saying  "Ovan". "Key of the Twilight" means "Epitaph User" (loved by Aura) and "Key of the Variant" means "AIDA-PC" (loved by the AIDA). Ovan is the only one with both. That's all it means by "Key of the Twilight". They state this explicitly. Moreover, plenty of things are called the "Key of the Twilight" that aren't Aura, in fact it's implied that it was  a mistake to ever even call Aura that. Before unleashing his Rebirth ability, Ovan tells Haseo that he found  the Key of the Twilight. It is a guide to truth, a blue bird of happiness, something ambiguous and personal.  Later, when Yata realizes that Skeith has devoured all the Epitaphs because he actually is Megaman (My mistake. Kite isn't though), and that these can react with the Book of Twilight, he says something like "A guide to truth. Haseo, you are the Key of the Twilight." Ovan doesn't have Haseo in his right arm. Case closed. Cite some actual scene from the game if you're still sure she's there.

I guess you're right. Though if Aura wanted to protect her mother she wouldn't have given Kite the Bracelet in the first place.

Well, she changed her mind, hence it was a moment of growth...

Also Kuukai, I think AT has already beaten the game.

He hasn't. I bug him about it on a near hourly basis. Ask him yourself. XD

Please don't ^^; I'll be beating it soon enough...

[Ravaan]

Kuukai, thanks for that. It really makes a lot more sense... as that would also explain why  Shino says that Haseo found the key of the twilight in the wedding scene with En...well, even though it's not serious, it makes much more sense than her saying En=Aura.
I like the idea of the Key of the Twilight being a guide to truth too. It still fits with the story and makes perfect sense really...

It all makes slightly more sense in my mind now...

*adds Kuukai to list of people to worship*

[ashlay]

Kuukai, thanks for that. It really makes a lot more sense... as that would also explain why  Shino says that Haseo found the key of the twilight in the wedding scene with En...well, even though it's not serious, it makes much more sense than her saying En=Aura.
I like the idea of the Key of the Twilight being a guide to truth too. It still fits with the story and makes perfect sense really...

It all makes slightly more sense in my mind now...

*adds Kuukai to list of people to worship*

though in that case, I think it really is more of a penis joke than anything else. -_-b

back to where this topic started, guess that makes the epitaph of the twilight some form of haralds guide to the truth.

[Ravaan]

I know it's a joke, that's why I said it wasn't serious

It would make sense if the epitaph was his guide to truth, but I'd be more likely to say that Aura or Emma was. His whole purpose was to show his love for Emma in a tangible form, it was all he was living for. His feelings for Emma were the driving force behind everything he did, so they kinda guided him...and Aura is the result of that love...Fragments may have even been his guide to truth because it was an almagation of his and Emma's work and was the key to creating Aura...

I dunno, I guess no one could tell us except Harald...It's a very personal and ambiguous term, guide to truth...

[Niu]

Umm, like I said, I dont really think it's any sort of prophecy. It's just in there, and some things related to it end up happening because of that... That doesn't mean he changed anything.

That still doesn't explain the Monkey case though. Where he actual used different words for the same poem. The big stone tablet Harold that appeared before Cubia recite the same stanza but speak the Monkey as the "Monkey that Spoke Men's Words" who has appeared before reaching the Dragon Bone Mountain. But in Emma's original version, it is "Monkey that Wears a Hat" that appeared before reaching the Dragon Bone Mountain. Harold read this OUT LOUD. This is what I mean by "literal" change, he pull out the same stanza and use completly different word.

And the poem not being a exact prophecy also furthers my argument too. Since my original point is that Harold changed Emma's poem so he can let his porgrame in the way he wants as some of Emma's original scenario does not fit well with his ideas. By dropping off a tones of important characters in the poem and not making them occur mandatorily proves my point that Harold did not fully use Emma's idea.

[Kuukai]

That still doesn't explain the Monkey case though. Where he actual used different words for the same poem. The big stone tablet Harold that appeared before Cubia recite the same stanza but speak the Monkey as the "Monkey that Spoke Men's Words" who has appeared before reaching the Dragon Bone Mountain. But in Emma's original version, it is "Monkey that Wears a Hat" that appeared before reaching the Dragon Bone Mountain. Harold read this OUT LOUD. This is what I mean by "literal" change, he pull out the same stanza and use completly different word.

First, I rewatched the scene where stone Harald appeared, and I can't figure out what stanza you're talking about. Also, the apes are both encountered after ascending the mountains, not before. In addition, I don't see how Sheradon (the ape with the fez) and the ape who speaks in human tongue have to be different. At the same time, also I don't see why there can't be two different apes in that area. Mountains tend to be like that.

And the poem not being a exact prophecy also furthers my argument too. Since my original point is that Harold changed Emma's poem so he can let his porgrame in the way he wants as some of Emma's original scenario does not fit well with his ideas. By dropping off a tones of important characters in the poem and not making them occur mandatorily proves my point that Harold did not fully use Emma's idea.

Neither the Epitaph nor The World are a prophecy or a mind control device (except when AIDA are involved). Morganna's berserking acts in accordance with material from the Epitaph, but it's not like Harald wanted the Epitaph (or his version, in your case) to "happen". At any point Helba could have, say, had a stroke or something. That isn't in the Epitaph. Real events going differently is no sign that the Epitaph in The World is incorrect.