Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

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AuraTwilight
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

Yeah, they hacked their appearance so they could roleplay AIs, I'm not sure I'd my any claims about their real life state, though...
They suffered the same fate as Harald, who died. The hackers lost their connection to the real world, so they're atleast in a coma if not deceased. It's preposterous to think they still have conscious control over their bodies without realizing it, or something.
Ok, so what are the TV headed dudes in Netslum Tartarga? AIs? Players? Really weird-ass NPCs? Combination of all of those?
Everyone in Net Slum except for the three mentioned before are actual AIs.
Some of them act like players... others just spout cryptic nonsense... and some are shopkeeper NPCs... or at least it seems... but one thing is oddly consistent... their appearance... WHY do they ALL appear that way? They must be connected in some way to all be like that.
Basically Darwinistic natural selection. Their appearances made it really obvious that they were AI's and thus CC Corp tried to delete them, therefore the only way for them to survive is to go to Net Slum. The AIs that don't have to go to Net Slum are convincingly human enough to hide among the players, like Rumor (Or so powerful that they simply don't have to worry about it, like Zefie and Lycoris).
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Ok, I can understand where you're coming from, but in IMOQ, there were a plethora of different looking AIs...

In GU they all have the same TV-headedness... That was what I was wondering... (And how did Tartarga become the embodiment of Netslum anyway...)
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

AuraTwilight wrote:They suffered the same fate as Harald, who died.
I demand you come up with a source for any word in that sentence.
AuraTwilight wrote:The hackers lost their connection to the real world, so they're atleast in a coma if not deceased. It's preposterous to think they still have conscious control over their bodies without realizing it, or something.
Maybe they split off, who knows? Not us, because nothing explains it.
Satoh wrote:Ok, I can understand where you're coming from, but in IMOQ, there were a plethora of different looking AIs...

In GU they all have the same TV-headedness... That was what I was wondering... (And how did Tartarga become the embodiment of Netslum anyway...)
They're not all exactly the same, in addition to Tartarga one's a dog. It's not really clear, but maybe they had to take on new "bodies" in R:2. At any rate, Tartarga finally resembles his namesake, and he's not the "embodiment" of Net Slum so much as a huuge Vagrant AI they built the new net slum on top of. Like previous Vagrant AIs, he can travel between areas at whim, while provides an advantage over the stationary one. I wonder if that means the new Net Slum exists more within the black box than on an outside server...
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

I'm assuming that, since they're AI's and their bodies are just a bunch of programmed polygons, they can control their appearance. Therefore, for whatever reason, they changed their appearances. Maybe TV Heads became a fad. Maybe they all swapped personality data and gained attributes from each other. Maybe they're reincarnations of their namesake and not the same exact AI's. Or maybe their old bodies just aren't compatible with R:2 in the same way R:1 PCs aren't. We can only speculate.

As for Tartarga, he seemed quite intelligent. I don't see why, with the help of Net Slum's Master, he couldn't merge with the server. Aura did it with the entire game all by herself.
I demand you come up with a source for any word in that sentence.
I'd get a video citation, but Youtube is acting pretty gay. It's the cutscene where Kite and Blackrose first meet Tartarga, and Blackrose asks about the AIs. Tartarga then describes how their nature, some of them being hackers who lost their way, wandering the network, and he uses the exact words of "Yes, the same fate as Harald."

And since Harald is DEAD...
Maybe they split off, who knows? Not us, because nothing explains it.
Completely unfounded. I'm going to go with the simpler and more likely explanation implied to us by the game itself.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

AuraTwilight wrote:It's the cutscene where Kite and Blackrose first meet Tartarga, and Blackrose asks about the AIs. Tartarga then describes how their nature, some of them being hackers who lost their way, wandering the network, and he uses the exact words of "Yes, the same fate as Harald."

And since Harald is DEAD...
granted, and I DO agree that they are most likely not conscious and may well be dead, BUT... Conjecture doesn't amount to proof, and that is only hearsay. He may not have meant that they were dead, but merely that they were a part of the game now.

HOWEVER again-- I can't think of a logical way for them to be part of the game like Harald if they still had some type of access to their bodies, so I do conclude, that they are most likely comatose or dead.

Besides, why would Tartarga know the EXACT fates of their bodies...?

Also, the dog AI has a TV head too. Cloofoofoo is its name. (one of them there might be two IIRC)
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

AuraTwilight wrote:As for Tartarga, he seemed quite intelligent. I don't see why, with the help of Net Slum's Master, he couldn't merge with the server. Aura did it with the entire game all by herself.
Uh, yeah, except not really, but we can only speculate...
AuraTwilight wrote:I'd get a video citation, but Youtube is acting pretty gay. It's the cutscene where Kite and Blackrose first meet Tartarga, and Blackrose asks about the AIs. Tartarga then describes how their nature, some of them being hackers who lost their way, wandering the network, and he uses the exact words of "Yes, the same fate as Harald."

And since Harald is DEAD...
Alright, maybe not any word, maybe just the "died." I think by fate he meant crossing over though, he didn't mean it in exactly the same way, since it seems pretty unlikely that Harald did AI roleplay, or that the hacker AIs stand around in castles and oppose Morganna.
AuraTwilight wrote:Completely unfounded. I'm going to go with the simpler and more likely explanation implied to us by the game itself.
That is... that we don't know? If everyone we do know about who crossed over is in a coma...
Satoh wrote:Also, the dog AI has a TV head too. Cloofoofoo is its name. (one of them there might be two IIRC)
Cloofoofoo is Culhwch mistranslated. Yeah, I was just saying they weren't exactly the same.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Kuukai wrote:
Satoh wrote:Also, the dog AI has a TV head too. Cloofoofoo is its name. (one of them there might be two IIRC)
Cloofoofoo is Culhwch mistranslated. Yeah, I was just saying they weren't exactly the same.
Now THAT I did not know... is it クルフーフ?I could see that being the spelling and thusly also being mistranslated cloofoofoo...
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

クルフフ, which matches the English pronunciation Wikipedia gives: [kʉlˈhuːχ]
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Kuukai wrote:クルフフ, which matches the English pronunciation Wikipedia gives: [kʉlˈhuːχ]
クルフィチ is more like kʉlˈhuːχ than the former... though I can understand not wanting to make the native format be so complicated to read... Shame no one thought to back-check the translations with the predecessors....
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

I think the closest thing to [kʉlˈhuːχ] (it's supposed to be the long X, but it's getting smooshed) in Japanese would be [kuuruɸuçi] (クールフヒ), without using fancy Ainu vowel-absorbers. But under the usual rules for this sort of thing クルフフ makes sense. [çi] is in allophone (you'd expect it to be [hi]). It's the closest thing in Japanese to the throat-clearing sound, but it's really only used in that capacity for transcribing German words, for whatever reason...

Oh, that last sentence was about Cloofoofoo? Honestly they should have just googled it, like the first translators probably did...
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

Alright, maybe not any word, maybe just the "died." I think by fate he meant crossing over though, he didn't mean it in exactly the same way, since it seems pretty unlikely that Harald did AI roleplay, or that the hacker AIs stand around in castles and oppose Morganna.
I'm just saying there's precedent for this, and not much reason to assume the rules worked differently for them, thus my original statement of "probably dead or in a coma."

You're getting a bit nitpicky about digging into my admitted conjectures, Kuukai. Something the matter?
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

You said "probably," and I disagreed with the probably. For over two years I've proudly listed nitpicking as one of my three main areas of expertise on my wiki page. I'll take it as a compliment if I'm getting better.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

You two sound like a married couple... =P
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by |<!73 »

Found it, the lines are omitted in the novel but in the game It's mentioned briefly. Tartega doesn't seem entirely sure but he does present the possibility. (>.< why didn't either of you look it up?)

(Game:.hack//Mutation - 25 The New Wave - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn1c5E-eL-0)

BlackRose: Say, uh...There's something that's been bothering me. The people around here. They all look so different from anybody I've seen anywhere else.

Tartarga: This place was once where all the unsuccessful non-player characters drifted. Sort of a sanctuary for failures. Then players who considered them amusing came up with their own variations of failed characters. Now, the boundary between player and non-player characters is quite indistinct. Some of them simply don't know which category they fall into. There are maybe even those who have lost their bodies on the outside. Mere memories. Faded reminders of the individuals they once were. Only their character data remains intact and active as they wander the network. Yes...the same fate as Harald.

Kite: Harald?

VS.

(Novel:.hack//Mutation - Mutation - Pages 187 - 188)

BlackRose: Say, uh, can you tell me why the people around here all look so strange?

Tartarga: This place was once where all the unsuccessful non-player characters drifted. It's sort of a junkyard-turned-sanctuary for failures. Players eventually stumbled into here and found these failed characters amusing. They've since added their own variations to copy attributes of failed characters. Now the boundary between player and non-player characters is quite indistinct. Some of them simply don't know which category they fall into anymore. Only their character data remains intact as they wander the network. It's the same fate as Harald.

BlackRose: Harald?
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

Thanks a lot, |<!73. Well, there you have it. They lost their bodies on the other side, whether that means comas or death.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Keyaki »

I hate to be a prick, but I wanna try to have at least one more shot at supporting my side of the debate


Amagi, partly accidentally, created the psychic link that all Epitaph Users must have with their PCs.
Okay I can fully understand, but guys saying that the Xth Form has nothing to do with that link?

I remember in another, older thread that said different ( I hate to quote this, but)
The implication is that Xth Form is a physical manifestation of Haseo's spirit and karmic liberation and rebirth. Giving up Xth Form isn't something that can just be deleted, it would probably send Haseo back into a coma.
Maybe I'm just alittle naive and ignorant but from my perspective, it seems like you guys are saying that the Xth Form has NOTHING to do with the psychic link between Haseo and Skeith

Again, maybe i'm just being the prick........
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Keyaki wrote:it seems like you guys are saying that the Xth Form has NOTHING to do with the psychic link between Haseo and Skeith
I didn't intend to give that impression, and it is in fact strongly opposite of my thoughts on the matter.

And this thread was made specifically for such discussions, philosophical, logical, technical, and otherwise. I'd say you're just fine bringing it up.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

|<!73 wrote:Found it, the lines are omitted in the novel but in the game It's mentioned briefly. Tartega doesn't seem entirely sure but he does present the possibility. (>.< why didn't either of you look it up?)
Thanks. I didn't look it up because we weren't really arguing about exactly what he said, though we can do that too...
AuraTwilight wrote:Well, there you have it. They lost their bodies on the other side, whether that means comas or death.
Except for the part where he says "maybe," and "mere memories." There are other ways to interpret that.
Keyaki wrote:Maybe I'm just alittle naive and ignorant but from my perspective, it seems like you guys are saying that the Xth Form has NOTHING to do with the psychic link between Haseo and Skeith
Who said that? It has more to do with Haseo and Skeith than with Zelkova, really. It's still related to the PC data as well, though. There's a reason Skeith is connected to only Haseo and not shared between everyone else who logs in who happens to fit the profile. The vehicle for the connection belongs only to him. Look at my pipe and water metaphor. That's how modifying something mundane could affect the "spiritual" connection, if indeed that's even what Zelkova meant when he said what he said.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

Maybe I'm just alittle naive and ignorant but from my perspective, it seems like you guys are saying that the Xth Form has NOTHING to do with the psychic link between Haseo and Skeith
No one said this, and Kuukai covered this pretty well.

Also, way to go at quoting an irrelevant comment of mine that's kind've out of date and, at best, poetic instead of literal.
Except for the part where he says "maybe," and "mere memories." There are other ways to interpret that.
The significance is a little strong for that in-universe "maybe" not to be giving strong signals of "probably." As for memories, that's pretty much what .hack defines as pretty much the building blocks of the person, along with your consciousness. If your memories are one one side, the other side probably isn't doing too well.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Keyaki »

Does altering the size of a pipe alter the amount of water that can flow through it? Yes. It's the same thing one way or another, that's what I'm saying.
Okay so i took a closer look at it like you said, so what your saying is

in .Hack Logic, the "water" is the mental/spiritual link between Haseo and Skeith and the "size of the pipe" is the Xth Form? And that it does affect the link between the 2, just not give it a physical form?
Also, way to go at quoting an irrelevant comment of mine that's kind've out of date and, at best, poetic instead of literal.
sorry, I seemed to make sense to me, sheesh >>

besides I did warn that the thread was old....
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