dothackers.net

Kuukai wrote:

MizuTakishima wrote:But companies should never point the finger at their customers, but instead ask themselves "Okay, why is this happening, and what can we do to better serve the people?"

That's a valid argument when groups like the RIAA sue your grandmother, but when they're just shutting down warez sites I don't think they're "fighting their customers."

Well, asking sites like onemanga or manga fox to take stuff down is something I don't consider as "fighting their customers", but if they started to say things like "ALL YOU PEOPLE ARE SICK! STOP READING THINGS ONLINE, IT'S STEALING, You are the problem, not us! We're totally sufficient, you guys are just heartless!" then I think that'd be a bad move XD'

Thankfully people in the Manga publishing business haven't done that, at least not that I know of. (I think someone in the anime industry said it though..ouchies)

Kuukai wrote:

MizuTakishima wrote:Sure anime and manga are different, but I don't see why they can't do something similar and make it work...'cause unless companies like viz start doing near-if-not simultaneous releases (Which they're perfectly capable of doing) of books or chapters (probably online for chapters) then people will still find a way to get their fix.

This I agree with, I imagine part of it is greed. Each translation company likes to maximize profits by bringing over just the right number of series at the right pace so they don't end up competing with themself. Like I said before I don't think they really need all that money, but that doesn't make a lot of the excuses here any less fallacious...

Yeah, I definitely agree with you there xD I think kids today just make up way too many excuses...like...with some people, the very idea of having to buy manga is absolutely ludicrous to them. I may not buy manga as often as I'd like to, but people with that mentality...I just think to myself that they must be crazy D:

It's funny, because people will buy the manga anyway, especially if all the scans aren't posted.

With one particular site (which I obviously won't name, and I won't tell even in PM), they "remove" the scans, however, it sometimes just takes a little URL changing to get to the scans. BUUUUUT we won't get to how that works, since I don't want to explain and I don't want the cops or banhammer at my door. Another alternative is to start charging for providing OFFICIAL scans online (ex. Marvel Digital Comics). Or of course, start providing free mini gifts in every issue like the monthly manga magazines.

People will buy manga anyway. Like how people are still buying books, especially when it comes to on-the-go and convenient reading (and when your computer is slow as fudge). Though I gotta say, manga in the US is really expensive, it's literally twice the price as the raw version. I checked.

Kuukai wrote:

Tolby wrote:A lot of time it takes me a few chapters/entire volume to decide if I like a manga or not.

A lot of the time game demos only show one level or aspect of the gameplay, does this mean I should go out and bootleg the whole game? Besides, as opposed to with games, you can actually run over to Borders and read the whole book if you need to. No, they don't have everything, but if you're not buying anything that's not a sufficient explanation...

I would bootleg a game if every level/dungeon cost 60 bucks much like ever volume of a manga cost 8-13 bucks.

Besides a demo usually gives you the core gameplay. How the entire game will be played, even if not all the extras are there. A few pages of manga doesn't do the same for a long story.

Maybe a volume will. While reading it at the store, like you mentioned. But how is that any different than pirating? Just read a new volume every month when they come out for free.

Edit: I mean look at how badly .hack gets scrutinized for releasing 4 volumes for one story or 3 volumes for one story. Full game price for each one. Thats what manga does constantly.

I mean let me just list ONE (well was gonna be one) of the series I read.

Alive - The Final Evolution. That 11 bucks a book. 19 volumes. Thats 200 dollars just to finish one comic book story? Fans of manga are fans of the media, not just one story. Often reading several series. Constantly paying out the ass just to read a story? That ridiculous.

Another one Hourou Musuko. I think its going on 11 volumes. Amazon has the first "book' listed for 20 bucks. If that isn't more than one volume then that 200 dollars for a series thats not even finished yet. Its on sale for 13.50. Thats still almost 150 dollars.


Now look at a lasting series like Naruto. 51 volumes. Seem to be about 10 dollars each. 510 dollars plus tax. Three series, of which only one is finished and you are out about a grand.


I don't even like manga all that much. I can't even imagine the people that do. Like I said, I probably would only actually read one series if I had to pay for books. At least video games have resale value, re playability. Yea you can read the series again, but that's only like watching the cutscenes again, not playing it again.

If it didn't make so much money, then they would not push to make so many.

Ratsu wrote:If it didn't make so much money, then they would not push to make so many.

Well, don't forget, there's manga-ka who enjoy creating manga and telling their stories through that medium regardless of whether or not it makes money. But that doesn't make stealing from them is a-okay though xD (Then again, publishers want these artists' works to make them money, 'cause that's why they hired the manga-ka in the first place XD)


@Tolby: Oh snap, that's a lot of monies D: This is exactly why I don't buy Manga as often as I'd like to...though I usually buy anime DVD's instead, which is probably not the best idea out there ;~; *wants to support the industry though*

Tolby wrote:I would bootleg a game if every level/dungeon cost 60 bucks much like ever volume of a manga cost 8-13 bucks.

I think a videogame level is closer to a manga chapter than to a full volume. A volume is usually 8 or more chapters, and you can cram a lot in there. Hell, the first series of Rayearth was 20 episodes based almost word-for-word on just three volumes of manga. The previews consist of about a full chapter, which should be enough to decide if you like the artstyle and storytelling technique. Like you said before, you can also look at a summary if you absolutely need to know how the story pans out before buying something. Movies are extremely short and cost like $10 now. They only release short trailers that don't reveal the whole story. Does this make it okay to sneak into a theater?

Tolby wrote:Maybe a volume will. While reading it at the store, like you mentioned. But how is that any different than pirating? Just read a new volume every month when they come out for free.

It's legal, for one thing. And for another, the owner maintains control. The publisher sold non-shrinkwrapped books to the bookstore with the knowledge that the store would allow customers to browse as a marketing technique. The bookstore reserves the right to shoo you away with a broom if you hole up there for a day without buying anything. With a warez version they retain no control, there isn't much there to help encourage you to buy the real thing.

Tolby wrote:Edit: I mean look at how badly .hack gets scrutinized for releasing 4 volumes for one story or 3 volumes for one story. Full game price for each one. Thats what manga does constantly.

That's not the problem, otherwise people would hate the Xenosagas and every other game series that tells a single story over multiple installments. People were disappointed with .hack because the games were short, you got at most two games' worth of playtime out of the whole series, and one game engine. Chopping up a story had little to do with it, if they were all full games with their own merits people would have had less trouble with it. The correct equivalent to .hack would be some sort of 30-page graphic novel or something, where they were obviously splitting up books just to make money.

Tolby wrote:I don't even like manga all that much. I can't even imagine the people that do. Like I said, I probably would only actually read one series if I had to pay for books. At least video games have resale value, re playability. Yea you can read the series again, but that's only like watching the cutscenes again, not playing it again.

Again, that applies to movies as well. You can't even rewatch them. And you can resell manga. You can buy it used, too...

ShinoBee wrote:Though I gotta say, manga in the US is really expensive, it's literally twice the price as the raw version. I checked.

It's about the same in the UK, though I'm complaining simply because over here, there is quite literally NO VARIETY WHATSOEVER. I wouldn't be complaining otherwise - It's taxation and shipping cost that ups the price of manga by so much - but the fact that we only get 1/100th of what you can get in the U.S. in terms of available series really takes my cake D:<

Kuukai wrote:

Tolby wrote:I would bootleg a game if every level/dungeon cost 60 bucks much like ever volume of a manga cost 8-13 bucks.

I think a videogame level is closer to a manga chapter than to a full volume. A volume is usually 8 or more chapters, and you can cram a lot in there. Hell, the first series of Rayearth was 20 episodes based almost word-for-word on just three volumes of manga. The previews consist of about a full chapter, which should be enough to decide if you like the artstyle and storytelling technique. Like you said before, you can also look at a summary if you absolutely need to know how the story pans out before buying something. Movies are extremely short and cost like $10 now. They only release short trailers that don't reveal the whole story. Does this make it okay to sneak into a theater?

No, but it does make me wait until I can buy it for 3 dollars on demand or own the movie for 10-20 dollars, and thats only if I really love the movie. I've bought a manga or two that had a chapter I really loved. Or watch it at a friends, or watch it for free on tv. Yes you have to pay for cable, but again thats a service with a set price and unlimited viewing. Hell, most tv series let you watch full seasons online for free now. They are making it easier to watch and enjoy. They take them down when the dvds come out usually, but they still offer it for awhile. It would be fine if they only had the lastest chapters online for free but not the entire series as well. That would at least be a step in the right direction. Unless its a must see, and even then you get the experience of a big screen, have fun time and going out. A level may be like a chapter, yes, I did overshoot. But still, if a short little game like Portal or an XBL game usually sell fors a lot cheaper than a full game and you don't have to keep buying installments for full price.

Tolby wrote:Maybe a volume will. While reading it at the store, like you mentioned. But how is that any different than pirating? Just read a new volume every month when they come out for free.

It's legal, for one thing. And for another, the owner maintains control. The publisher sold non-shrinkwrapped books to the bookstore with the knowledge that the store would allow customers to browse as a marketing technique. The bookstore reserves the right to shoo you away with a broom if you hole up there for a day without buying anything. With a warez version they retain no control, there isn't much there to help encourage you to buy the real thing.

I think "because its legal" isn't a very good reason. So just because something is legal or illegal doesn't make it right or wrong. I'm not saying to do everything illegal, just if something is illegal doesn't mean it should be. I'm saying people should pirate manga because they are entitled to it. I'm just saying if there is this huge of a problem it probably, at least in part, the industry's fault. Like music. People downloaded music not just to get it free, but because of convenience, not having to buy a full cd and so on. So again, my solution is having a website or download program that lets people read all the manga they want for 10-15bucks a month. They can even wipe your device if you stop paying. If you like it enough you'll buy hard copies. I read G.U.+, LiNK and so on before they came out. I have hard copies now, because I care enough about it to buy it. All the other series I read I would never have had the chance to care that much. Like I said before, I would probably only pay for one, maybe two, of the series I'm reading now. However if I wasn't able to comfortable and conveniently read the chapters I never would have even cared enough about them to want to read them badly enough to buy the books. Plus the wait. How log it takes the official translaters to translate and publish the volumes.

Tolby wrote:Edit: I mean look at how badly .hack gets scrutinized for releasing 4 volumes for one story or 3 volumes for one story. Full game price for each one. Thats what manga does constantly.

That's not the problem, otherwise people would hate the Xenosagas and every other game series that tells a single story over multiple installments. People were disappointed with .hack because the games were short, you got at most two games' worth of playtime out of the whole series, and one game engine. Chopping up a story had little to do with it, if they were all full games with their own merits people would have had less trouble with it. The correct equivalent to .hack would be some sort of 30-page graphic novel or something, where they were obviously splitting up books just to make money.

Thats what I mean. Manga volumes are short. I can easily polish off a manga volume very quickly. It just a bunch of drawings with speech bubbles. Its not like every paged is filled with words. Yes, I like to take my time and take in the art, but it is still short. I'm not just talking about games with sequels or long volumes. Thats why I used .hack.

Tolby wrote:I don't even like manga all that much. I can't even imagine the people that do. Like I said, I probably would only actually read one series if I had to pay for books. At least video games have resale value, re playability. Yea you can read the series again, but that's only like watching the cutscenes again, not playing it again.

Again, that applies to movies as well. You can't even rewatch them. And you can resell manga. You can buy it used, too...

Yes, but you get an entire movie for 10-20 dollars. Even if it is short its an entire different experience and you get the whole story for the standard price. If they are multiply volumes its because each volume is very long. Plus I'm fairly sure it generally takes a lot more time an money to make a good 2-3 movie with actors, directors, special effects and so on. Not that I'm trying to say producing manga is a walk in the park, but still.

Problem with manga is often the pricing. You can have companies like Viz, who make their manga a bit cheaper for people to buy. On the other hand, there are companies charging close to twenty per volume. Though the typical price is about ten for each volume, it's still an expensive hobby.

I read manga online for a few reasons:

1. Perhaps I want to see if the series might interest me.
2. It's a series that updates slow.
3. I can't find it in stores.
4. I don't plan on owning it, but I find the story slightly entertaining.
5. I do plan on buying it, but it won't be released for a few months.

I do buy Manga that I would like to read again. So I don't take from the industry by reading it online. They should be happy I bought pretty much every volume of fruits basket as it was released, including Fanbook Cat and that Banquet thing. Perhaps I'm just not the type to steal what I enjoy.

The reasons I read it and buy it:

1. I enjoy it and wish to read it on my own time, not worry about the internet or if my computer is working.
2. Reading on a computer is fine, but sometimes I would rather have a hard copy.
3. Downloading is alright, but I prefer to at least have access to some manga in my hands.
4. Owning a book is something that gives me pride.

I have read manga in a store like Borders. I just don't like going to the mall to read manga for hours at a time.

Either way, it's much like the Napster thing. Industries don't like money taken away from them and don't care that the economy isn't helping their customers afford their products. Disposable income can change easily.

More news about OpenManga: http://mangahelpers.com/news/details/383

Apparently they're going to be teaching "how to draw manga" too. This kinda worries me 8I I don't mind if we had people from Graphic Sha or The Society for The Study of Manga Techniques doing the teaching, or even some other manga-ka's, but if they're like...gonna have...I dunno...Mark Crilley doing it or something, or someone not even as good as that guy (or anyone with a western name hahahahahaha...ha) then I'mma be ready to facepalm~

I c that western racisms u did thar

AuraTwilight wrote:I c that western racisms u did thar

shhh....it'll be our little secret

@MizuTakashima-

>implying that westerners can't actually draw manga

Deviantart is the living denial of that belief.

nobodyknows wrote:Deviantart is the living denial of that belief.

I beg to differ. 90% of what I've seen on DeviantART is crap. :\

Then again, I might just be picky.

Throwing my two cents into the argument, the reason I don't buy manga is because it's so expensive. Heck, I asked my brother to look for the price for G.U.+ and he said it was too expensive for the first volume. We're not made of money, you know, and there are some people that enjoy manga that aren't rich. Sure it's good to support the company that made it, as well as the author, but sometimes you just can't.

GyppyGirl2021 wrote:

nobodyknows wrote:Deviantart is the living denial of that belief.

I beg to differ. 90% of what I've seen on DeviantART is crap. :\

I heartily agree. And it's not just that a lot of the art is poor. Too many people think "I own a camera" is a sufficient excuse to have an image gallery.

_Tri-edge_ wrote:Sure, this hurts sales, but the possible removal of scanlation sites could severely damage the moral factor for most manga titles, as hundreds of thousands of people rely on scanlations only for their reading pleasure, simply because they are broke, or their manga is nowhere to be found in stores, hurting sales even more IMO.

Why would the removal of manga that isn't available in stores to begin with hurt sales? That's the real question.

I'm not going to tell you you can't pirate stuff; what you do online is your business. But don't use the potential for sales being hurt to justify indulging in free entertainment.

Personally, I believe the same approach ought to be taken with scanlations that is (or was at one time) taken by fansubs. Only not-yet-localized manga ought to be scanned, and when a company announces that they are bringing the manga overseas, all further scans should cease, and the manga removed. This is because the whole point of fansubs and scanlations was originally to give English-speakers an audience to stuff that wasn't available otherwise. When it is available otherwise, I have trouble justifying it.

I'd really like to have Mass Effect 2 to play right now, but I don't have the money to buy it. I'd ask for the game if I felt there were the slightest chance that Best Buy would give me a free copy. Does that mean I don't deserve to play it?

GyppyGirl2021 wrote:

nobodyknows wrote:Deviantart is the living denial of that belief.

I beg to differ. 90% of what I've seen on DeviantART is crap. :\

I was talking about the westerners who actually bother to create something amazing, instead of ripping off someone else. While they are few, they still exist. Plus, you can't base Devart off of your own biases. You have to take into account everyone else's knowledge as well.

That being said, I - like a vast number of devart's users - mostly post concept art on Devart, and leave the comics for actual publishers, or Real Life :/...

I would go into a rant about how you've probably never tried to create a manga/ comic, but that's for a different topic. All in all, my motion is that 'you can't judge a book by it's cover... especially the cover that only you have ever seen'.

@marthwmaster, you misunderstood me. Then again, I did make a critical typo. I meant "morale" instead of moral. Basically, as the manga gradually loses popularity due to the numerous amount of people not reading it anymore because of the lack of availabilty, weither it be in stores (online or reality), or scanlation sites, they will eventually lose "profit" indicating a decline in sales. We can all agree that if a product does not induce popularity, then sales numbers aren't going to be very high, or at the very least, decrease over time. Yes, Pirating plays somewhat of a part in this too, but not all who participate in it solely rely on the sites. Some actually buy the manga if it's interesting enough, or if it's an exceptionally good read. The only problem is, the majority doesn't. What I'm trying to say is, the removal of scanslation sites will severely impact quite a few manga series' morale, and with that, the money will be too.

I'm noticing people here are making the same fallacious assumption that the record and film industries make in thinking that a manga read online is a sale lost for the publishers. It is not uncommon for people to read manga online that they only have a mild interest in and would have otherwise totally ignored had it not been online at all. There are also those who will never pay for a single manga volume as long as they live even if it were reasonably priced and easily accessible.

nobodyknows wrote:@MizuTakashima-

>implying that westerners can't actually draw manga

Deviantart is the living denial of that belief.

Boy, you sure like to jump to conclusions =\ You could have at least asked me what I was actually getting at, or if I could elaborate a little bit.

That said, I'mma go ahead and elaborate anyway, just 'cause I hate being misunderstood, even if I was being incredibly vague. (I tend to be vague if me standing on my soap box would cause me to actually steer off-topic, but I guess there's no stopping that now)

[long rant, making it a spoiler just 'cause it's so long and off-topic]  Now then; do I think westerners can't "draw manga"? Well, that honestly depends. Do I think all westerners are bad at utilizing manga techniques? Of course not; being a member of deviantart myself, I've seen the "living denial of that belief" too. I even try to improve my manga skills because it's just something that I'm passionate about, (but gasp I'm a westerner too! herpaderp) even if I don't draw every single day like my older sister does.

But if I'm at a store, and I see something drawn sort of like a manga, and it just-so happens to have a westerner's name on it, then I'd honestly, probably would not be interested. (heck, usually I can tell what country its from just by, yes, judging the book by its cover. I can even tell Manga and Manhwa apart. Though that isn't too hard either.) Why? No, not because I'm racist, but why do you think we even use the term Manga to begin with; is it a) because the characters have big animu eyes, spikey, shiney hair, and everything's in black and white, or b) because Manga hails from Japan, and there's a different stylization to it compared to typical DC/Marvel/western comics? (if you chose "a", then...well you'd be wrong)

Manga isn't a style, it's another culture's technique, (which is why different manga can have different styles) and even native-Japanese can still be amateur manga artists too. But if you've seen some of the OEL's (Original English Language; the propper term for "western manga") that get published by say, tokyopop; the western artists who make them aren't bad at it, (if they were bad at it, they'd have been rejected and not published at all) but a professional Japanese manga-ka who's been at it for years (and probably grew up with anime/manga all their lives) could probably take any of their characters and re-draw them in the style they were going for, but with certain manga/anatomical corrections implemented. (if you wanna see an example, take a look at this from one of my sister's How to Draw Manga books; "How to Draw Anime & Game characters, vol. 2 Expressing Emotions (by Tadashi Ozawa, from the publishers of the original "HTDM" series by graphic sha) and yes, the drawing on the left was drawn by a Japanese person, but they were still an amateur. Heck, for an amateur, they certainly do have talent, and so do most OEL creators.)

Heck, some comments I get on dA are people telling me how "pro" my stuff looks, but I already know I ain't hot sh*t and still have a lot to learn about manga drawing in general.[/long rant]

TL;DR- sorry if I'm politically incorrect, but if I actually crushed ANYONE'S dreams of being a manga-ka just 'cause there's a chance I may not buy from you- since typical (as in, typical, not all) westerners who "draw manga" are really a bunch of wanna-be's who think their skillz are hot sh*t, then you may wanna think things over. Both Comics and Manga are still graphic novels, and there's nothing wrong with using that medium in whatever techniques you want to tell your story...just don't act like a whiny weeaboo about it. (not directed at you, I mean anyone in general) I also trust that my opinions will be respected, even though no one here has to agree with me. Just don't hate me for being different! ;A; *is probably going to get major hatred for this from everyone in the forum*

MizuTakishima wrote:

nobodyknows wrote:@MizuTakashima-

>implying that westerners can't actually draw manga

Deviantart is the living denial of that belief.

*uberlongpost*

I have one thing to say; "Manga" literally translates into "Comics". Likewise,"Anime" literally translates into "Animation". The only reason we think of it as "different" is because Japan has a different culture where Comics and Animation are concerned. All you've proven to me -through your long rant- is that you're just like every other Amerif*g out there; "Because it sounds cool and foreign, it MUST be something COMPLETELY different to comics, so I'll obsess over that instead!" The only reason that manga is done in the style it is is thanks to Ozamu Tezuka.

I'm sure that if you were to show western comics to a Japanese person, it would cause a similar culture shock to what Manga has done in 'Western' society, simply because the name sounds 'cool and foreign' to the Japanese.

It's the same case with authors. because you've already stereotyped 'manga' as being something 'cool and foreign', you expect the author's name to be 'cool and foreign' as well, despite the fact that 'manga' and 'comics' are quite literally, one and the same. To put it better, 'manga' and 'graphic novels' are one and the same. 'graphic novels' are a sub-category of 'comics'.

I think you should take a look at this article here; http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ndsForeign
You might find it to be very useful in explaining the above in wider detail.

EDIT: The flow of the article is slightly different to the point I'm making, but the point that most people think 'foreign is cool' does exist therein.