Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

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_Tri-edge_
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by _Tri-edge_ »

No, since the epitaphs didn't have bracelets in G.U. Data Drain was more of a power automatcally installed inside the avatars. I'm making this statement since IMOQ Skeith had a bracelet on it's left arm and Avatar Skeith Data Drains with it's right. Avatar Corebenik orginally Data Drains with it's right arm, but later on Data Drains with it's left, although, I think that was just an AIDA Manipulated Data Drain. In other words, AIDA mixing it's power with the power of Corebenik's Data Drain.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

_Tri-edge_ wrote:No, since the epitaphs didn't have bracelets in G.U. Data Drain was more of a power automatcally installed inside the avatars. I'm making this statement since IMOQ Skeith had a bracelet on it's left arm and Avatar Skeith Data Drains with it's right. Avatar Corebenik orginally Data Drains with it's right arm, but later on Data Drains with it's left, although, I think that was just an AIDA Manipulated Data Drain. In other words, AIDA mixing it's power with the power of Corebenik's Data Drain.
They were never actual "Bracelets" that is just the term that became used to describe their shape and bodily placement.

The Data Drain effect is different for each avatar, but they all share one thing: Protrusions radiating from a central point. (like beads on a bracelet would be)

IMOQ's DD effect was the same, though the shape of the protruding shapes was slightly different. Their shape is unimportant, however, as Azure Kite's "bracelet" looks nothing like the IMOQ one.


EDIT: if you want to talk about bracelets, you should bring up the guardian, dawn wanderer, and the bracelet enemies... as they each had an object that looked like an actual bracelet in them...
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Keyaki »

AuraTwilight wrote:
But maybe Cubia was there in the beginning, just not as manifested as much as at the end because Haseo wasn't fully the Key of Twilight yet and Cubia must always match the power of the current Key of Twilight to the T., and once again just as with Kite, just keeping tabs on Haseo until it attacked post-Rebirth
Xth Form is the Key of the Twilight. Until it comes into existence, Cubia has no reason to be active.

I know that but.............ah nvm
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by _Tri-edge_ »

Satoh wrote:They were never actual "Bracelets" that is just the term that became used to describe their shape and bodily placement.
Image
Umm...That looks like a Bracelet to me.^^ Unless you're talking about the avatars.
Satoh wrote:The Data Drain effect is different for each avatar, but they all share one thing: Protrusions radiating from a central point. (like beads on a bracelet would be)
Well, every avatar's Data Drain had the same effect, just different styles. Although, Azure Flame God totally scews up everything in perfect logic, since he can Data Drain in two different ways with two different effects. Corebenik's a unique case, since AIDA<Tri-edge> in some way Manipulated it's Data Drain. I also had a theory about the "eye" design of the Data Drain. One person came up with a really good conclusion that the eye was just a symbol, representing that they were a part of Morganna, but Azure Flame God once again screws that up.=/
Satoh wrote:IMOQ's DD effect was the same, though the shape of the protruding shapes was slightly different. Their shape is unimportant, however, as Azure Kite's "bracelet" looks nothing like the IMOQ one.
Azure Kite's Twlight Bracelet was fragmented. It's the same, just damaged. Possibly from earlier battles with Ovan, as AT once indicated.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Keyaki »

Well, every avatar's Data Drain had the same effect, just different styles. Although, Azure Flame God totally scews up everything in perfect logic, since he can Data Drain in two different ways with two different effects. Corebenik's a unique case, since AIDA<Tri-edge> in some way Manipulated it's Data Drain. I also had a theory about the "eye" design of the Data Drain. One person came up with a really good conclusion that the eye was just a symbol, representing that they were a part of Morganna, but Azure Flame God once again screws that up.=/
or maybe from what AT said

a "stylistic aiming cursor"
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

Ovan does not actually have the Key of the Twilight, it's metaphor; Ovan has both an Epitaph and an AIDA, so he is one loved by both Aura, goddess of this world, and AIDA, the gods from beyond.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Master ZED »

AuraTwilight wrote:Ovan does not actually have the Key of the Twilight, it's metaphor; Ovan has both an Epitaph and an AIDA, so he is one loved by both Aura, goddess of this world, and AIDA, the gods from beyond.
As I recall, Yata's the only one that ever calls AIDA "god" and the only one that refers to Ovan as "blessed" by AIDA, but he does that in a childish rage pining over the fact that he was left behind in his little office nook and didn't get to do anything on the front lines for so long. I don't think he'd ever think, let alone say those things, especially to Ovan's face, had he not harbored such regret and anger for himself (and if Ovan hadn't been poking Yata's ego with a stick trying to get Fidchell to come out). Anything that would have let him get a step closer to Aura would have been divine in his eyes at the time, mostly because he was desperate.

But if Cubia is the shadow of all Epitaph Users, yet Cubia only counters the Key of the Twilight, how does that work out to only Haseo being a Key? You're making it sound like the Key has to prove itself a danger first, and yet you've said that's not true either. I suppose there's also the possibility that unlike what the song title suggests, there aren't eight Keys, but eight fragments of a Key, and Haseo consuming the other seven fragments turned Skeith into a complete Key. That would make sense given the Eight Phases of The World were eight parts of Morganna.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

As I recall, Yata's the only one that ever calls AIDA "god" and the only one that refers to Ovan as "blessed" by AIDA, but he does that in a childish rage pining over the fact that he was left behind in his little office nook and didn't get to do anything on the front lines for so long. I don't think he'd ever think, let alone say those things, especially to Ovan's face, had he not harbored such regret and anger for himself (and if Ovan hadn't been poking Yata's ego with a stick trying to get Fidchell to come out). Anything that would have let him get a step closer to Aura would have been divine in his eyes at the time, mostly because he was desperate.
Right, but regardless of that, Yata was pretty much right. Fidchell's prophecy was on some subconscious level probably reflecting Yata, as Ovan's closeness to Aura is his "Key of the Twilight", or his little bluebird of happiness.
But if Cubia is the shadow of all Epitaph Users, yet Cubia only counters the Key of the Twilight, how does that work out to only Haseo being a Key? You're making it sound like the Key has to prove itself a danger first, and yet you've said that's not true either. I suppose there's also the possibility that unlike what the song title suggests, there aren't eight Keys, but eight fragments of a Key, and Haseo consuming the other seven fragments turned Skeith into a complete Key. That would make sense given the Eight Phases of The World were eight parts of Morganna.
Cubia was the shadow of Xth Form, not the Epitaph Users as a group, since Xth Form was the combined power of all eight.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by ZelkovatheWise »

The Xth form though AT if you remember IS the Key of the Twilight. At least it was the physical manifestation it took in the G.U. series.. In the original series the key's physical manifestation was the bracelet. As for Zelkova being a A.I., I am straight out going to tell you and I want no arguments on this one as too much proof has been brought up in the past to both support it and counteract any statements that tried to defy this, ZELKOVA IS A AI. He does not exist in the real world what so ever. He is the Ruler of Netslum, the Watcher of Za Warudo (in a earlier conflict I made it clear though that this doesn't mean he is like Aura and can fix things, he just watch's it), He is a Instigator, He is "Him", He does have access to the Epitaph of Twilight as do all A.I.'s in Za Warudo.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

The Key doesn't "manifest" any more than, say, an actual key. It's any item that can lead to the truth of The World.

I don't think that last part about the Epitaph is true, and Zelkova's identity could still be whatever they want it too be, regardless of what was implied. They'd have more freedom coming up with him that virtually any other character besides Helba, because of how little we know.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by _Tri-edge_ »

Kuukai wrote:The Key doesn't "manifest" any more than, say, an actual key. It's any item that can lead to the truth of The World.
So let's say I play The World. All of a sudden, I find this secret area in the game that reveals what really lurks within the history of the game, and the history that coincides with it. With that said, would that particular area be the "Key of Twilight"? Or will I, the player that discovered it, be?
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by ZelkovatheWise »

You cannot say that the key does not manifest or is a item as Ovan stated that the key was Haseo in The World:R2 or rather the fully completed version of Haseo (all avatars combined with his).
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by TheSorrow »

You cannot say that the key does not manifest or is a item
Key of Twilight in R:1 = Twilight Bracelet
Twilight Bracelet = Item
Key of Twilight in R:1 = Item

The key doesn't HAVE to be an item, it can be whatever as long as it leads to the truth of The World and can grant you your desired wish. But, it CAN be an item, as in R:1, it was an item indeed. The Key of Twilight could even be an Asian Mango, if for some random reason, that mango could lead you to the secrets of The World and grant a power that could even harm Aura.

And i'm curious about the answer to _Tri-Edge_'s question, though i'd say that in such case, the area would be the Key of Twilight, if the area by itself revealed all such truth...if it was something in particular inside that area that revealed all the knowledge, that particular thing would be the Key, and if that player was the one to carry all the knowledge within himself (as in, he read something within that area, or his brain was stuffed with all the information after entering to it), and used it to grant the wishes of others, then the player would be the Key :P
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by ZelkovatheWise »

TheSorrow wrote:
You cannot say that the key does not manifest or is a item
Key of Twilight in R:1 = Twilight Bracelet
Twilight Bracelet = Item
Key of Twilight in R:1 = Item

The key doesn't HAVE to be an item, it can be whatever as long as it leads to the truth of The World and can grant you your desired wish. But, it CAN be an item, as in R:1, it was an item indeed. The Key of Twilight could even be an Asian Mango, if for some random reason, that mango could lead you to the secrets of The World and grant a power that could even harm Aura.

And i'm curious about the answer to _Tri-Edge_'s question, though i'd say that in such case, the area would be the Key of Twilight, if the area by itself revealed all such truth...if it was something in particular inside that area that revealed all the knowledge, that particular thing would be the Key, and if that player was the one to carry all the knowledge within himself (as in, he read something within that area, or his brain was stuffed with all the information after entering to it), and used it to grant the wishes of others, then the player would be the Key :P
This area exists we know it as Ovan was always here with his AIDA infested sister Aina (odd how their name's are similar). In other words the room he is talking about is the Creator's Room that has existed in every version of Za Warudo thus far. Also, when I made my reply I read it as if he was saying that the key HAD to be a item.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by |<!73 »

The Key of Twilight is any item that leads or guides to the truth behind The World. Its definition is ambiguous however both The Twilight Bracelet and Haseo's PC are forms of data. An area by itself is also data. For example the mountains at Six Ringing Peaks of Al Fadel or the Balbol Museum are places the key might apply. Both exist in the system yet easily bypass the laws of the game. If either became a passage to discovering or threatening Aura then its definition is equivalent to the Key of the Twlight. The item is just means to information gain. I think of this as whatever gives epiphany to the game's original purpose.

Image

http://dothack.wikia.com/wiki/Key_of_the_Twilight

http://dothack.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Ringi ... f_Al_Fadel

http://dothack.wikia.com/wiki/Balbol_Museum

As for Zelkova it would be harder to consider him AI if he's the same as Helba from the different hints dropped by each individually. I believe both are separate and that for Helba to entrust net slum to anyone it would either be one of its existing residents or a hacker outside the net.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by ZelkovatheWise »

Yet the residents of netslum are mostly AI's if you think about it. That or wandering data (like me ^_^). As for the key, you can't rely on wiki's definition there as you could then say that what is stopping AIDA from becoming the key of twilight. Don't give me a response stating that it could be too as we know that AIDA although according to your definition of the key, possesses all the right requirements, it does not have the ability to be the key. If you had never played the game before I told you that Ovan was trying to find the key of the twilight before G.U. and then I let you play volume 1, tell me do you AT ALL think AIDA could have ever been the true key. The way AIDA has been shown and presented and its past is told it could never be a candidate for the key even though it possesses the required things. Cubia itself also meets all the requirements of the key of the twilight yet does anyone ever think there is a chance of it being the key. No one knows what the key is but they all say flat out it isn't Cubia. You can't give me that definition and tell me that only things like that could possibly be the key. Morganna, Cubia, AIDA, the combined 8 Phases without Haseo the player, these all meet the requirements you have given that the key must have to be a possibility yet we know these things are not and would never be the key. Za Warudo is meant to remain mostly a mystery due to its black box and only those who could gain access to the Creators Room or Balbol Museum could ever possibly know everything it holds, it is the same with the Epitaph of Twilight. Its impossible for anyone to know it completely. Sorry if this was long winded but I think I said what I was thinking properly (sometimes my words don't come out right, blame it on the speech program ^_^).
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by |<!73 »

AIDA alone doesn't provide the Intel to The World's true purpose. Isolated it’s just a virus from the outside. The reason Cubia isn't seen as the key is because it’s also they very condition to his creation. He is an anti existence. Cubia doesn't lead to what's already revealed and atop of that he's a distortion. Also I can give the definition. The eight phases themselves all lead to a single truth. To take words "only a small piece of the truth will appear in front of a single epitaph." Individually each of them can learn truth. In fact before .hack//truth it was stated (game wise) that Cubia was indeed an anti existence to the epitaph's both individually and together. Even without Haseo mentally the PC itself is a key which in its essence of holding all eight phases is Morganna.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by ZelkovatheWise »

|<!73 wrote:Even without Haseo mentally the PC itself is a key which in its essence of holding all eight phases is Morganna.
In that statement right there you just said Morganna is in other words the 8 phases together. THAT IS WRONG. Morganna is not the 8 phases nor will she ever be. The eight phases are as far as we know her creation using the elements from the Black Box a.k.a. the 8 waves of the Cursed Wave. She did combine with Corbenik in the original games to fight you but thats 1 phase and once Corbenik was defeated she was seperated, destroyed, and reborn. As for your statements on AIDA and the key, AIDA is not just a virus because it has the ability to think for itself. Keeping this in mind you would then have to say it resembles more AI's than a virus. Also your now starting to sound like your going into your own definition of what the key can be when you say this. The reason that I have yet to state a definite description of what the key could be is because it is impossible to know and that no one including Aura could possibly know. Ovan intended for Haseo to become the key. Not because he met the requirements, he had to gain those requirements, but because Ovan knew some requirements needed for the key. If he didn't know those requirements he wouldn't have kept pushing Haseo and setting him in certain directions. The actual requirements for the key are unclear so none of us could ever state that the key could only be a item or a pc or anything.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

In that statement right there you just said Morganna is in other words the 8 phases together. THAT IS WRONG. Morganna is not the 8 phases nor will she ever be.
The series itself says otherwise. The Phases are created from her own data. They are her, and she is them.
As for your statements on AIDA and the key, AIDA is not just a virus because it has the ability to think for itself.
It's a sentient virus, then. So what?
Keeping this in mind you would then have to say it resembles more AI's than a virus. Also your now starting to sound like your going into your own definition of what the key can be when you say this. The reason that I have yet to state a definite description of what the key could be is because it is impossible to know and that no one including Aura could possibly know. Ovan intended for Haseo to become the key. Not because he met the requirements, he had to gain those requirements, but because Ovan knew some requirements needed for the key. If he didn't know those requirements he wouldn't have kept pushing Haseo and setting him in certain directions. The actual requirements for the key are unclear so none of us could ever state that the key could only be a item or a pc or anything.
That's just your own ignorance. We were given the definition one needs to meet to find the Key of the Twilight. It is that which leads to the Truth of Za Warudo, and exists as a part of it.
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Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

It's been officially stated, in both the game and in Truth, that the Key of the Twilight is any guide to the truth of The World. This is indisputable, and, f you actually think about it, this seems internally consistent with everything else.

An area that reveals everything? That can't happen, there's no such area. Even if you find the Creator's Room (which could have never happened without the incursion of AIDA, which have also been called a "Key" of sorts by Fidchell, but never seemed to generate a Cubia), you'll only find the Epitaph, nothing more. The real truth of The World resides in the Black Box, and the only way to access that is the Key of the Twilight. I believe that even a know-it-all like Ichiro Sato, standing in the square and telling everyone exactly what's going on, would not be considered a Key on account of the fact that what he's giving is just a summary of the truth, even he doesn't really understand how the program actually works. The only path to that at all is within The World, via the Key of the Twilight. In the real world it's been thoroughly blocked (try as they might, no one has been able to decode Harald's program).

AIDA isn't a virus. It can behave in a virus-like way, but it doesn't have to. That's not a fundamental part of its nature. It's no more a virus than Morganna was. In fact, the comparison may run deeper than that. In the same way that Morganna's phases weren't a Key of the Twilight until they were all controlled by someone from the outside world, the AIDA's net-born nature may have prevented Cubia from ever seeing them as a threat.
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