that was apparently a joke that one of the designer's put in there.
it was mentioned somewhere in the LOTB forum aswell,that is were i got that info.
but even still, it does bring an interesting view to the table......
Perhaps...Tri-edge isn't "evil."
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SnowManZero
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Dragoon2044
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In my own eyes I see good and evil as mere misinterpretations of others beliefs and values. The morality between right and wrong varies with each individual. What makes an individual? Consciousness. The ability to distinguish between 'yes' and 'no'. As it was, 'wavering' must be the process that enables the consciousness to neither choose 'yes' or 'no' enabling thought. Thoughts that pass through black and white are shades of grey; indecision. This inability to make clear decisions soley based on simple 'yes' and 'no' factors indicate the existance of a new factor; thought. I believe it is wavering that seperates a true artificial intelligence and a program.
Which do you believe Tri-edge to be? An Artficial Intelligence? A program? Artificially Intelligent Data Anomally would indicate Tri-edge to be an artificial intelligence yet at the same time Tri-edge is devoid of thought. In my mind I see Tri-edge acting out the role of a mere program without consciousness.
The similarities between conciousness, artificial intelligence, and programs are very important to understand. A program would follow the shortest path to reach a destination. For example, you wake up in the morning and your destination is in the kitchen downstairs for breakfast. What do you do? You open your eyes. Now a decision has to be made. Do you get up out of bed or do you stay in bed? Yes or No. Were going to choose 'yes'. Next you walk over the door. Another decision has to be made. Do you open the door or do you keep it shut? Yes or No. Lets choose 'yes' once more. To get to the kitchen we must go downstairs and walk down the hall way. Do we want to go down the stairs or not? Again, yes will take you down the stairs. Then one more time through the hall way to reach the kitchen. Then you have to make breakfast...etc.
Lets add artificial intelligence for moment. Lets say you're about to go downstairs. Do you walk downstairs, run downstairs, or jump out the window to reach the ground floor? Since jumping out the window would cause harm and running down the stairs might cause injury, were going to walk down the stairs.
Finally lets add conciousness(wavering). You're about to go downstairs. There are a number of ways to reach the ground floor. You could jump out the window. You could walk downstairs. You could run downstairs. You could slide down the banister. Since jumping out of the window will definately cause harm we are down to three choices. Walking, running, or sliding. We know the possible consequences of whichever option we choose. The recommended course of action would be to walk downstairs. Lets choose to run downstairs. While running down the stairs we also remember to hold on to the banister to avoid loosing balance. Holding on to the banister is also another decision that involved thought and reasoning; lowering the chances of injury while increasing the pace of reaching the ground floor.
Now lets eat breakfast!^^
Which do you believe Tri-edge to be? An Artficial Intelligence? A program? Artificially Intelligent Data Anomally would indicate Tri-edge to be an artificial intelligence yet at the same time Tri-edge is devoid of thought. In my mind I see Tri-edge acting out the role of a mere program without consciousness.
The similarities between conciousness, artificial intelligence, and programs are very important to understand. A program would follow the shortest path to reach a destination. For example, you wake up in the morning and your destination is in the kitchen downstairs for breakfast. What do you do? You open your eyes. Now a decision has to be made. Do you get up out of bed or do you stay in bed? Yes or No. Were going to choose 'yes'. Next you walk over the door. Another decision has to be made. Do you open the door or do you keep it shut? Yes or No. Lets choose 'yes' once more. To get to the kitchen we must go downstairs and walk down the hall way. Do we want to go down the stairs or not? Again, yes will take you down the stairs. Then one more time through the hall way to reach the kitchen. Then you have to make breakfast...etc.
Lets add artificial intelligence for moment. Lets say you're about to go downstairs. Do you walk downstairs, run downstairs, or jump out the window to reach the ground floor? Since jumping out the window would cause harm and running down the stairs might cause injury, were going to walk down the stairs.
Finally lets add conciousness(wavering). You're about to go downstairs. There are a number of ways to reach the ground floor. You could jump out the window. You could walk downstairs. You could run downstairs. You could slide down the banister. Since jumping out of the window will definately cause harm we are down to three choices. Walking, running, or sliding. We know the possible consequences of whichever option we choose. The recommended course of action would be to walk downstairs. Lets choose to run downstairs. While running down the stairs we also remember to hold on to the banister to avoid loosing balance. Holding on to the banister is also another decision that involved thought and reasoning; lowering the chances of injury while increasing the pace of reaching the ground floor.
Now lets eat breakfast!^^
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azure_flames
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You make a very, very good point Dragon2044, but what we really don't know is whether or not Tri-Edge is capable of thought. Yes, he appears to be emotionless, but does that really mean he cannot reason like anyone else? I'm sure you've heard the theory about how Tri-Edge was the one who first saw a PK when he/it/whatever was born. If this is the case, then we must take into consideration that he was new then. Aura, I believe, was most likely damaged by the fire at CCC. Without any clear guidance, Tri-Edge saw how a player acted, and began acting in the same way. Sort of like monkey see, monkey do.
Tri-Edge, I think, is an AI. He is capable of thought. He merely cannot tell which is the right decision, due to a lack of guidance on the part of whoever created him. He's like a child. They only learn the difference between what is right and what is wrong by learning through experience and through the guidance of parents/guardians/things along those lines. I doubt Tri-Edge is EVIL, because I also think of good and evil as being subjective. It all depends on a person's perspective, beliefs, etc.
And yes, I realize that saying Tri-Edge is simply misunderstood sounds a bit stupid. But hey, it's a possibility. Who knows, the whole point of G.U. could be just to make it so Tri-Edge learns how to become an ultimate AI since Aura seems to be MIA. That's an even bigger stretch, but you never know.
Tri-Edge, I think, is an AI. He is capable of thought. He merely cannot tell which is the right decision, due to a lack of guidance on the part of whoever created him. He's like a child. They only learn the difference between what is right and what is wrong by learning through experience and through the guidance of parents/guardians/things along those lines. I doubt Tri-Edge is EVIL, because I also think of good and evil as being subjective. It all depends on a person's perspective, beliefs, etc.
And yes, I realize that saying Tri-Edge is simply misunderstood sounds a bit stupid. But hey, it's a possibility. Who knows, the whole point of G.U. could be just to make it so Tri-Edge learns how to become an ultimate AI since Aura seems to be MIA. That's an even bigger stretch, but you never know.
There was a bord i saw a while ago that had a translation saying they feard auroras light will leave them so she was sealed in grima lowe so prehapse in a weakend state aura tried to bring kite to protect her but ended up creating an imcompleet ai that cant tell friend from foe and believes he is protecting aura
i know its unlikely but its still a possability
i know its unlikely but its still a possability
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SnowManZero
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by 'they' do you mean cc corp?
and if so, it wouldn't surprise me if this were the case.......
i'm not gonna dismiss it, i'm just gonna slap a 'maybe' sticker on it
i'm not gonna copy the whole thing, as it is really badly speltThere was a bord i saw a while ago that had a translation saying they feard auroras light
and if so, it wouldn't surprise me if this were the case.......
i'm not gonna dismiss it, i'm just gonna slap a 'maybe' sticker on it
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Dragoon2044
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How do we know that these people who are being attacked are innocent? For all we know, they're malicious cheaters or hackers, just rude and unpleasant, or are even rapists and murderers in real life.
Granted, that last one isn't very likely, but there may be a reason behind all of the "senseless" attacks. We just don't know yet... If you think about it, the majority of fans seem to be thinking that these attacks are either random, unjustified or a mix of both.
Then again... Since when have any premature speculations by fans been correct? This series is about twists and turns. I'd actually be disappointed if we got it right...
Personally, I'm open to anything at this point. Too little information to be stating any concrete opinions. *thoughtful look*
Granted, that last one isn't very likely, but there may be a reason behind all of the "senseless" attacks. We just don't know yet... If you think about it, the majority of fans seem to be thinking that these attacks are either random, unjustified or a mix of both.
Then again... Since when have any premature speculations by fans been correct? This series is about twists and turns. I'd actually be disappointed if we got it right...
Personally, I'm open to anything at this point. Too little information to be stating any concrete opinions. *thoughtful look*
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azure_flames
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If any of you have ever played FFVIII, you'd remember Squall thinking to himself about "good and evil". What he thinks at that moment is the truth. There is no good or evil. It's all just people's perceptions.
Example:
The crusades. The christians said that the muslims were evil since they didn't believe in Christ. So the Pope sends off several thousand troops to slaughter them and take back the so called "Holy Land". The muslims retaliate against the christians because the christians are evil for trying to kill them and take their homes away.
See? It's all just a matter of beliefs and opinions. Good and evil don't exist. This is not to say however, that right and wrong do not exist. There are actions that are morally right, and actions that are morally wrong. In the example, morally wrong was the Pope's action in the first place. The muslims defending their homes and families, was morally right.
Note: This is just for the first part of the Crusades, anything after that is just a bunch of fights that have very little moral significance.
Back to the topic however, I think we cannot call Tri-Edge evil, because from his point of view, what he's doing is right. While from Haseo's point of view, Tri-Edge is in the wrong. The only question left is this: Which one is truly working to make The World R:2 better, and which one is trying to destroy it?
Example:
The crusades. The christians said that the muslims were evil since they didn't believe in Christ. So the Pope sends off several thousand troops to slaughter them and take back the so called "Holy Land". The muslims retaliate against the christians because the christians are evil for trying to kill them and take their homes away.
See? It's all just a matter of beliefs and opinions. Good and evil don't exist. This is not to say however, that right and wrong do not exist. There are actions that are morally right, and actions that are morally wrong. In the example, morally wrong was the Pope's action in the first place. The muslims defending their homes and families, was morally right.
Note: This is just for the first part of the Crusades, anything after that is just a bunch of fights that have very little moral significance.
Back to the topic however, I think we cannot call Tri-Edge evil, because from his point of view, what he's doing is right. While from Haseo's point of view, Tri-Edge is in the wrong. The only question left is this: Which one is truly working to make The World R:2 better, and which one is trying to destroy it?
Although I disagree with the belief that there is no such thing as Good or Evil, I do agree with you on one point.
Working to build the world is the action that I would consider to be Good. However, We do not yet know what Tri-Edge's ultimate goal in all of this is. Yes it appears to be random attacks and such, but what if this was a carefully planned procedure to somehow better The World.
Oh and by the way. What's the difference between morally right and good? Morally wrong and evil seem to be the same thing to me.
Working to build the world is the action that I would consider to be Good. However, We do not yet know what Tri-Edge's ultimate goal in all of this is. Yes it appears to be random attacks and such, but what if this was a carefully planned procedure to somehow better The World.
Oh and by the way. What's the difference between morally right and good? Morally wrong and evil seem to be the same thing to me.
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azure_flames
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It seems I wasn't clear enough about that part. A sixteen year old kid starts smoking. His action is morally wrong according to the views of society (and probably his parents), but does that really make him "evil"? I don't think so, it just means he made a decision that isn't what we would consider to be morally right. In another scenario, that same kid decides not to smoke. A morally right decision, but it doesn't make him "good". It just means that at the time he made a decision that is better than the other choices.
"Evil" is used to describe sin personified. A person or being that rapes, murders, destroys, etc. without showing any remorse or regret for their actions. "Good" is used to describe the exact opposite. A person or being that heals, protects, rebuilds, etc. for everyone, without ever showing any signs of doing "evil things". Hopefully, this clears that up some.
Note: Over time, this has been slightly changed. You get people who are "good" who have major issues, and "evil" people who regret their actions. So on and so forth. This applies more to the original views of "good" and "evil", not to the changes that have been made over time to make stories and such more interesting.
"Evil" is used to describe sin personified. A person or being that rapes, murders, destroys, etc. without showing any remorse or regret for their actions. "Good" is used to describe the exact opposite. A person or being that heals, protects, rebuilds, etc. for everyone, without ever showing any signs of doing "evil things". Hopefully, this clears that up some.
Note: Over time, this has been slightly changed. You get people who are "good" who have major issues, and "evil" people who regret their actions. So on and so forth. This applies more to the original views of "good" and "evil", not to the changes that have been made over time to make stories and such more interesting.
I'm not sure what your definition of murder is, but it doesn't fall under the self defense category. The whole definition of murder is to kill someone in cold blood. As for rape being caused by sickness, that's a whole lot of bull. I have never in my life heard of someone being raped by a mentally retarded person. (I have heard of mentally retarded people being raped, but that's another story.)Tri_Edge1 wrote:but what is right and wrong these days."Evil" is used to describe sin personified. A person or being that rapes, murders, destroys, etc. without showing any remorse or regret for their actions. "Good" is used to describe the exact opposite. A person or being that heals, protects, rebuilds, etc. for everyone, without ever showing any signs of doing "evil things". Hopefully, this clears that up some.
but just because poeple do those things doesn't make the evil.
for rapes and destroying. alot of that is caused by sickness not because they are evil. for murders. alot of the time it is done in self defense and wasn't intentional.
I get what you're saying azure_flames, and I sort of agree with you. But to me it's all just the degree of Good or Evil. It isn't good or evil personified, just someone with a bit of both inside of them.
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azure_flames
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I also see what you are saying and agree with your points, and I do find it likely that there may just be some good and evil in the world. As for the "little bit of both", I think you are more referring to the "gray area". This would bring me back to Liminality, where Kyo refers to it in the third OVA. Which once again brings me back to thinking that my theory about all this being wavering is true. Two games put together that shouldn't be put together. What happens then? Wavering. Plus it fits into the world of .hack easily, so it makes so much sense...Anyway, back on topic. The "gray area" is where I think you are going with this. Where it is possible for someone to have both good and evil traits. Though please, let me know if you meant something else.
On a side note...Just because I'm talking about them together and all doesn't mean I'm starting to actually believe they exist. I'm more just thinking of the possibilities. Needed to keep that clear so yeah. That's pretty much it.
On a side note...Just because I'm talking about them together and all doesn't mean I'm starting to actually believe they exist. I'm more just thinking of the possibilities. Needed to keep that clear so yeah. That's pretty much it.
Ok so you're saying that murder is simply the act of one person killing another person. By your definition, whenever a cop kills a criminal, he commits murder, or if a soldier kills an enemy soldier, then he commits murder.Tri_Edge1 wrote:I'm not sure what your definition of murder is, but it doesn't fall under the self defense category. The whole definition of murder is to kill someone in cold blood. As for rape being caused by sickness, that's a whole lot of bull. I have never in my life heard of someone being raped by a mentally retarded person. (I have heard of mentally retarded people being raped, but that's another story.)
my deffinition of murder is when someone kills someone and gets charged with an offense of murder. that is what i was refering to. and alot it is defense. like if someone tries to kill you and you shoot them in defense and kill them. thats still charged under murder for the most part
and with people raping an stuff from sickness. i wasn't talking bout retarded poeple. just poeple that dnt kno that it's wrong.. if u get what i'm saying on that. or people that have urges liek child pornography and child melesters. just because they do that dsnt make them evil. if they dnt do that or get help to stop then they break down. but i get what ur saying
But I think it's a little more complicated than that. I believe that killing in self defense self-defence is definately not murder. I also believe that killing soldiers in a war is not murder. However, I believe that killing your boss because you hate them IS murder. To me, murder is the intention.
So you believe child molestors are not evil? What would you call it instead? Rape in any form is hurtful and cruel. Therefore it goes under my definition of evil. Molestors know that it's wrong. Our society is set up in a way so that every single child ought to know just how bad rape is.
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SnowManZero
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can we just agree that evil is subjective?
i mean what someone might see as bad, another person might see as good.
i mean we see prisoner's as bad when they might see themselve's as right.
in general, people see these good and bad act's and make a clear distinction between them so that there kid's and younger people know what's right from what's wrong.
however, people can choose to ignore these label's and create there own, or even reverse them, claiming that what's good is bad.
a perfect example of this is school children. they see teacher's as mean and nasty and why? because they got in trouble off of them due to something they did.
now the thing is, that since we are 'playing' through our own eye's, each person's perception on what's good and what's bad is completely different.
some people might see thing's are bad while another might not think highly of the bad act in question.
heck even on this thread people are diverse in what they define as bad.
so basically accept the fact that bad is a subjective view.
i mean what someone might see as bad, another person might see as good.
i mean we see prisoner's as bad when they might see themselve's as right.
in general, people see these good and bad act's and make a clear distinction between them so that there kid's and younger people know what's right from what's wrong.
however, people can choose to ignore these label's and create there own, or even reverse them, claiming that what's good is bad.
a perfect example of this is school children. they see teacher's as mean and nasty and why? because they got in trouble off of them due to something they did.
now the thing is, that since we are 'playing' through our own eye's, each person's perception on what's good and what's bad is completely different.
some people might see thing's are bad while another might not think highly of the bad act in question.
heck even on this thread people are diverse in what they define as bad.
so basically accept the fact that bad is a subjective view.
err... the point of this board was weithor or not you believe Tri-Edge is Evil, not your opinion on what evil is. So, lets get back on topic. As for me, I believe that Tri-Edge is not evil. I've heard some rumers about Haseo transforming or something and my geuss is that the 8-phases locked a strand of data to some characters as a catalyst for themselves and Tri-edge is trying to prevent thier reincarnations or something, but its abit hard seeing as these reincarnations may be giving out thier member addresses wich carry a small amount of data about that character. thus, confusing Tri-edge. But thats just my thoughts.
