Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship.

Discuss the anime series that started it all, .hack//SIGN and //LIMINALITY

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marthwmaster
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Post by marthwmaster »

I'm going to say, both.

And even after the two of them realize the ramifications of Tsukasa being a girl, that won't change the typical response players would have to seeing a male character holding hands with a female character.
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Post by Observer »

In that case I think I partially agree with you.

The revelation that Tsukasa is a girl in the real world certainly does affect other people's perceptions of the relationship not only in the .hack storyline but in our world too. However, I don't think it ultimately affects Tsukasa and Subaru's feelings for each other. After all, when Tsukasa told Subaru about his discovery of him being a girl in the real world and asked if she still wanted to meet him knowing that, she said yes without a batting an eye and without a moment's hestitation. She said it was because she was touched by his "trembling soul". It is true that Subaru may not have known for most of the series that Tsukasa was a girl in the real world but I think she must have been aware that she didn't really know much of anything at all about him in terms of the real world and yet she was still attracted to him because of his soul. This is mainly the reason I think the term "soulmates" applies to them. I think Tsukasa feels the same too, or else he likely wouldn't have wanted to return to the real world.

But you don't have to take only my word for it. If it's perception you're interested in than a couple of years ago a user posted a theory on the .hack//INFO forum having to do with Tsukasa and Subaru and having to do at least in part with the issue of perception. I personally concur with this theory but even if other people don't for some reason than I think they'd at least agree that it's well thought out.

Anyway, the theory is right here:

http://dothack.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2229
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Post by EnyaAthleas »

Bah. Y'know what you guys?
It. Does. Not. Matter. What. You. Think.

Must I repeat it? Even if you don't "Believe" in gay or homosexual relationships, or think they're wrong... it doesn't mean they're not there! Just because in your perspective that kind of stuff is wrong, you can't base your argument on that alone, because all you have are feelings. Feelings VS Facts.
[Kinda reminds me of the dad of the boy who was accused of shoplifting, supports his son and gets angry, but then is bombarded with proof...]

I personally do not believe homosexuality is 'Right' but that does not mean I go and stone and shoot gay people when I see them, I accept them, your feelings should influence only yourself, and maybe those really close to you.

Subaru x Tsukasa is a wonderful relationship, because... they fulfill everything one would look for in a relationship, except for physical circumstance. They truly do love each other, except they're both female. But considering they have the other part down pat, why would they just give up? Like... Honestly, maybe you guys would like kill me or something, but honestly... if I was dating this girl, and everything was perfect, and we loved each other and everything... if I found out she was like, my secret cousin or something... I'd still stay with her. If you care for someone like that, you can't just... stop caring... I guess it's really if you believe, or how much you believe in Love. But in the anime world, or any fantasy world, Love is the main, strongest thing, so obviously Tsukasa and Subaru is a realistic ending for the story.

No, you don't get to see Mimiru IRL. You get to see... BT, Tsukasa, Bear in a jacket in rain, Sora, and Subaru. But not Mimiru. I think you may be thinking of the three girls who play the Critical Long Arm girl...
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Post by Observer »

Cool.

But you don't really have to tell ME that. :wink:

And as far as Mimiru is concerned I believe you actually do get to see her IRL very briefly in one episode. She is only there for a second or two at most so you'd have to be quick. I think it's in the episode "Reason" though I could be wrong.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Oh, and by the way, I know this is off-topic but are you talking about the "End of Evangelion" movie or just the last episode of the series? Because if I remember correctly Shinji and Rei did actually share at least one meaningful moment near the very end.
The movie. The last episode didn't have giant angelic Mothers of Mankind devouring Nephilm clones and the world actually ending.
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Post by Observer »

Well,

The end of the world was actually implied to be happening in the last episode. But it was still very difficult to tell what was actually going on to say the least. Most, if not all, the viewers booed the last episode because it was confusing and unsatisfying. That's why the movie was made. The movie is definitely the true ending to one of greatest animes of all time.
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Post by marthwmaster »

EnyaAthleas wrote:Must I repeat it? Even if you don't "Believe" in gay or homosexual relationships, or think they're wrong... it doesn't mean they're not there! Just because in your perspective that kind of stuff is wrong, you can't base your argument on that alone, because all you have are feelings. Feelings VS Facts.
::still struggling to figure out what this has to do with anything:: :|

Anyway, I just feel like their relationship might have ended up having a sexual element if Tsukasa were a guy IRL. But that's all I meant by that.
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Post by SnowManZero »

when i said i had no idea who the other's were, i meant Christus and Sophia of Gnostic mythology. >_> who the hell has heard of them?

and as for the sexual nature of the relationship, i think that this one is deliberatly left up in the air.

1it create's all sort's of discussion's thus generating propaganda(as if you'd talk about it :wink: )

2since there is quite a few rather adult implecation's in this, and that some kid's may see the game's first and then get the anime, this question would spring into mind.

3if it was answerd in full, then who know's what horrible thing's would be unleashed into this world of debauchery and chaos?(pure sarcastic BS as we all can figure out what would happen pretty darn easily)
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marthwmaster
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Post by marthwmaster »

SnowManZero wrote:and as for the sexual nature of the relationship, i think that this one is deliberatly left up in the air.
You're probably right. But my opinion is that they don't care when they discover that they're both girls, because their relationship is so much more than that. It's a spiritual connection, as has been said many times on this thread. That's what I think.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

The end of the world was actually implied to be happening in the last episode. But it was still very difficult to tell what was actually going on to say the least. Most, if not all, the viewers booed the last episode because it was confusing and unsatisfying. That's why the movie was made. The movie is definitely the true ending to one of greatest animes of all time.
The movie was made as revenge against the viewers, as he published their angry letters in the movie covered in blood presumed to be the writers'. I'd go with the episodes, since that was his true vision.
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Post by Observer »

I believe what EnyaAthleas means is that there are obviously people who don't see them having a romantic element to their relationship mainly because they don't want to see any such element because they either disapprove of same-sex relationships or because they're just not comfortable with the idea. Believe me, I've encountered this kind of thing before. In the uncut version of Sailor Moon there are two main female characters who appear later in the saga, Haruka and Michiru, who are involved in a romantic relationship. Predictably in the English dubbed version this aspect was edited out and the two characters were made into cousins. But I read some ludicrous and unconvincing arguments several years ago on the internet that tried to discount the lesbian element. I don't remember them very well but one that I do remember was when someone tried to argue about one instance of when one of the characters in question stopped dancing with a girl at one point and started dancing with a guy during a gathering. This was argued as evidence of bisexuality. Go figure. It's unfortunate but there are people in this world who stubbornly see only what they want to see.

Also let me once again point out the distinction between a sexual relationship and a romantic relationship and how the two do not necessarily go hand in hand.

As for the nature of Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship being deliberately left up in the air, that may be but there's a good chance that may only be the case in countries other than Japan. Due to American companies tendency to edit out any homosexual or homoerotic elements of animes they pick up for TV it would seem more than likely that they wouldn't want anything to do with material that includes or implies such elements, Sailor Moon being a case in point. Since .hack//ZERO and .hack//analysis both reportedly include information supporting the perception of Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship as romantic than it's certainly not inconceivable that this is at least one of, if not the only, reasons that the books are unlikely to ever be translated into english and released in America like AI Buster was and like Another Birth is scheduled to be.

And believe it or not the theme of homosexuality or homoeroticism is actually relatively common in Japanese Manga and Anime, an example being Revolutionary Girl Utena, the TV series and the subsequent movie, the latter of which I have seen personally. It even occasionally appears in productions intended for children, a good example of this being the popular anime and manga, Card Captor Sakura. America television often tends to be subject to strict standards, meaning that if something pushes the limit it often comes under protest by someone, often conservatives. But apparently in Japan there is much more tolerance, so long as there is a strict and firm line observed seperating what goes on in the real world and what goes on in various fictional worlds. The very presence of such elements in Japanese popular culture would seem to be proof enough of that. So it looks like there's a decent chance it's only left up in non-Japanase air.
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marthwmaster
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Post by marthwmaster »

Now that's a strong point. I do, however, question how you could have discerned that much from EnyaAthleas's post. :roll:
I don't disapprove of same-sex relationships. I just see this relationship as being more Platonic than anything. But that's completely my own opinion. Still, I would really love to read .hack//ZERO to see how it develops, expands, and possibly changes the established connection.
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Post by Observer »

I think you mean what you personally believe to be the established connection.

And by the way, only the first long sentence of my previous post was reading into EnyaAthlea's post. Everything else came from me.
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Post by marthwmaster »

Well, it's definitely art. Everyone can draw their own ideas from it. That's the definition of art in my book. :)
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Post by Observer »

Perhaps.

Even if those ideas are unrealistic and contradicted by the facts. I've certainly seen plenty of that in my life so far.

Oh, and I don't think I used the word "relatively" correctly in my last long post. A better word would be "somewhat". That is to say that homosexuality and homoeroticism are both somewhat common themes in Japanese anime and manga.
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Post by EnyaAthleas »

Meh, I read up to the 6th page or something. Half the posts were saying 'Eww, homos, eww, gay, I don't like that, they're just friends, not gay' I was addressing that particular issue. Sorry if I confused anyone, I'm really trying to improve my essays and arguments so people other than me will understand what I'm saying, haha.

So anyways, undisputed I believe we are that Subaru and Tsukasa have a romantic relationship with each other. Thanks to Observer. What is unknown is the sexual elements of their relationship. And honestly, I don't think that matters very much...

I've yet to watch/read/play .hack//Zero, AI, etc. But I plan to very soon.
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Post by marthwmaster »

So I think we're in agreement, then. Now what? 8)
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Post by Observer »

Now I guess we can all get on with our lives and move on to another topic. At least until we have any new information regarding this topic. But for now I guess we can all talk about GU on another thread or something.
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Re: Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship.

Post by Darmk Lord Space Cow »

I personaly think that they have a strong love 4 eachuther that grew befor they new eachuthers gender and I don't think that gender matters they love eachuthere they whuld risk everything 4 eachuther and they have an incredibly beep conection and they understand eachuther more than annyoneelse culd thare love 4 eachuther is strong and it dosent matter whut they r all that matters is thare love 4 oneanother.
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Re: Tsukasa and Subaru's relationship.

Post by Aura's Little Sister »

Why did you post on a 2 year old thread!?Really...
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