So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

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Kenpobuu
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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kenpobuu » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:39 pm

Neat.

And could we explain half of that in-universe as just misinformation? As for Shino, Aina, and Yata, why would they need to be around? Shino doesn't seem that important in this case (unless I'm still missing something). Does having Aina around matter much either? I seem to remember her saying she only Played "The World" to be with Ovan. She may be searching for him in the real world (assuming he is actually still missing). Yata's contract with CC Corp was up after GU, right? While I figure he'd probably still be playing, do you think he'd work with CC Corp again? Sorry if I'm not grasping things properly. I'm just going by what I've just read and my memory (I've recently replayed all English released dot hack media from AI Buster to GU Vol. 2, so those are fresh at least). I really wish they would just translate and bring over all of these things officially. :(

On a side note, after being registered on this site for six and a half years (having been an anonymous lurker far longer), I've finally hit the 25 post mark! No more lurker status for me!

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kuukai » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:10 pm

Congratulations on the upgrade and thanks for contributing to the discussion!
Kenpobuu wrote:And could we explain half of that in-universe as just misinformation?
The NAB has pretty good information about things, so that doesn't really make sense. Pi would know these things, or at least not wrong things.
Kenpobuu wrote:Does having Aina around matter much either? I seem to remember her saying she only Played "The World" to be with Ovan. She may be searching for him in the real world (assuming he is actually still missing).
Ovan moved heaven and earth to help her. Ovan's still in the game, so you would think she'd at least be trying to help him.
Kenpobuu wrote:Yata's contract with CC Corp was up after GU, right? While I figure he'd probably still be playing, do you think he'd work with CC Corp again? Sorry if I'm not grasping things properly.
Yata means more to Pi than Ovan (even her guild name in Quantum is a reference to him and his naming scheme), and as you mentioned it doesn't seem likely like he'd quit playing The World (or being interested in its mysteries) so where is he? Space?

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kenpobuu » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:40 pm

So does that mean Ovan is dead/comatose physically and only alive in the game after the Rebirth?

And I suppose that's true about Ovan trying to help Aina, but after four years, maybe Aina is trying to help in a different way? Or just wasn't around at that exact moment (as I recall, the bulk of the story takes place in a relatively short amount of time)? And I suppose that's true of Yata. Unless he's just trying to be mysterious and reclusive or something. I'm not trying to grasp at straws or anything, I just want to make sure the plot holes/continuity errors can't be explained in some reasonable way.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kuukai » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:05 pm

They say he's still a Lost One.

The characters might. I was just building on what was said earlier about it being odd that Shino totally disappeared. But that's not to be confused with the actual serious mistakes with Quantum (Ovan being gone in the first place, Amagi, etc.) Ovan is a retcon, and their summary of Link makes no sense and connects to nothing before or after Quantum. .hack usually handles retcons more elegantly, too.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Bullet Biter » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:34 pm

I always assumed Yata ran off on some soul searching journey. I mean guy lost his job and got kind of a wake up call on how much of a werido he was being over The World...maybe he ended up like Albireo and just kinda went off the grid. Shino and Aina just fell off the face of the planet though so I'm assuming CC2 just kind of forgot about them.
Or hell maybe Aina is dead, wasn't her condition incurable?

-shrugs-

Anyway.
I do see the logic with Reiko dressing up as Aina. With her guild name Yata no Kagami I don't think it's a reference so much to Yata as it is to the mirror used to lure Amaterasu out of hiding, so maybe she's just attempting to bait him out of where ever the hell he's apparently floating around.


Hmmm...they really need to release a book with all the information clearly laid out and finalized.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kuukai » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:44 pm

Aina might be dead, that's a thought.

For whatever reason (and the story never really explains this), Yata is pretty much the most important thing in the world to Pi. It really doesn't make sense that he wouldn't be around. Yata no Kagami absolutely is a reference to Yata and Raven. Yata and Raven are named after the raven familiar of Amaterasu, the Yata no Karasu. The same naming scheme (which basically just means "big") extended to her mirror. They're both related to Amaterasu.

They have confirmed the retcon that Ovan never returned.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Bullet Biter » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:42 pm

Kuukai wrote:Aina might be dead, that's a thought.

For whatever reason (and the story never really explains this), Yata is pretty much the most important thing in the world to Pi. It really doesn't make sense that he wouldn't be around. Yata no Kagami absolutely is a reference to Yata and Raven. Yata and Raven are named after the raven familiar of Amaterasu, the Yata no Karasu. The same naming scheme (which basically just means "big") extended to her mirror. They're both related to Amaterasu.

They have confirmed the retcon that Ovan never returned.


Ah I missed that reference, thanks for the info.
 Here's to hoping he comes back and doesn't end up in the mystery zone like Yata

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Adhemas » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:45 pm

Damn, I didn't know a bunch of facts mentioned here.

Sorry for my noobish questions, but is Ovan (mind and body) now officially missing? I always assumed he was just in an endless coma in real life, but living in the game due to the end of Returner. I should rewatch this episode I think, but I am somewhat sure they didn't mention his real life condition there. I also have to admit that this is the first time I've ever heard about the  Tanaka/Ovan's son theory. Where does this come from?

I think I am missing a lot of stuff anyway, since Link isn't translated (yet). Same with the newer LNs and Versus. Another question regarding Quantum and the retcons: Is it the same for the LN and manga? I guess the anime is the canon version anyway but still.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kuukai » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:54 pm

He's still missing mentally, I'm pretty sure they know where his body is.

The Tanaka theory isn't a real theory, it's the the only real way to connect this retcon to the mysteries of the potential sequel.

I haven't read the novel version, although I believe it's the same.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Lindz » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:51 pm

Kuukai wrote:He's still missing mentally, I'm pretty sure they know where his body is.

I was vaguely thinking maybe Ovan really was just "missing" in the real world. Pi would wanna be looking for him for Yata's sake since the two were closely acquainted, but if Quantum says coma then gee. Well I never took Returner as a definitive "return" for Ovan anyhow since it didn't state or even hint he was okay in the real world. Wandering AI's can send e-mails an obviously soul digitalized/comatose peeps can still show up in the game. But if Link says otherwise what the heck were they thinking? Weren't Link and the "new anime" basically announced together?

I wanna say Yata is still playing the game. Like Silver Knight, Piros, and others he's just one of those types that'll keep on keeping at it!

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kenpobuu » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:39 am

Who is Tanaka? And where is there a theory connecting Ovan and Tanaka? If this was stuff from VS./The Movie, I've obviously never seen them, so I'm sorry for the ignorance.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Bullet Biter » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:01 am

Kenpobuu wrote:Who is Tanaka? And where is there a theory connecting Ovan and Tanaka? If this was stuff from VS./The Movie, I've obviously never seen them, so I'm sorry for the ignorance.



http://dothack.wikia.com/wiki/Gondo
That's Tanaka.

It's just a joke because most fan depictions of Masato Indou have him looking like the most generic guy in glasses ever and Tanaka actually kinda matches their designs.

Nothing serious just goofing around lol

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kenpobuu » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:19 am

Oh ok. I thought this was a more serious theory. Darn. I like those kinds of things. And I wish Funimation had gotten the movie too... Then maybe we'd actually get an English dub for that (it's not like they really had any returning characters to be faithful to other than maybe Aura).

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kuukai » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:13 pm

The mention in Quantum of "not everyone returning" seems to contrast directly with, you know, the name "Returner." That's a pretty big disparity.

Quantum was announced far after Link came out, but a little bit of concept art for it (and a lot more for the movie) was included in a book that came with the special edition. It doesn't seem likely that the script was written by that point.

If Yata is still involved, it's difficult to imagine how. He probably isn't Smith.

Well Tanaka's background is the biggest mystery moving forward. He grew up in Tokyo (where many .hack characters live) and then moved out to Yanagawa (where only the movie characters live), and has special unique powers that make you wonder if something is going on there. He was born six months after Pluto Again, in June 2010, which was around the time Kite decided to quit The World. He has an egregious amount in common with Orca. In fact in the pilot version of the movie, he and Tomohiko were one character named Yasuhiko who goes into a coma. Not that it matters, but Orca's name is Guts Tanaka in the original games' Parody Mode. I think he has some proposed last names in Archives but I haven't had the chance to see if these are Tanaka as well.

So if Ovan's status is the biggest mystery in the past, playing the "are they connected?" game is kind of fun. What's the point in this big of a retcon if it doesn't connect to anything? But age-wise and Aina-wise it doesn't make any sense.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Lindz » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:58 pm

Kuukai wrote:The mention in Quantum of "not everyone returning" seems to contrast directly with, you know, the name "Returner." That's a pretty big disparity.

Returner isn't plural though! Sakisaka returned... so... bam! Issue solved! (j/k) Even so it never explicitly said Ovan in which form Ovan returned. But all the same it does reek of retcon. Does anyone know if this gets mentioned at all in Quantum+ or Twin Hearts?

Quantum was announced far after Link came out, but a little bit of concept art for it (and a lot more for the movie) was included in a book that came with the special edition. It doesn't seem likely that the script was written by that point.

Ohh my bad. Misremembered that series of events!

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Keyaki » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:12 am

Kuukai wrote:Everything about Amagi besides what he looked like. He didn't want to Soul Digitalize people to end racism, he wanted to Real Digitalize people to achieve immortality. And that didn't end in 2015, it ended in 2020. He was trapped in the network for 5 years. Ovan isn't missing, and even if he was it's hard to say how dressing like Aina is going to help. For that matter, not just Shino, where are actual Aina, and Yata, in all of this? Pi was borderline obsessed with him.


I suppose I should watch Quantum again because I didn't really catch all of the stuff that caused chaos to the continuity.

And Pi's explanation I just counted it as her poor observation of Amagi's ambitions seeing as it seemed that she was just going off of what she learned from Banshoya's video diary (though I could be wrong). So I didn't really pay much attention that.

But I don't recall any mentioning of Ovan in Quantum, but again, I suppose I should watch it again(Thank you, Netflix). But that being the case and it apparently retconing Returner, that makes Ovan missing. Meaning I guess that would make Returner non-canon?

Kuukai wrote:According to the recent Archives, at least Bloody Christmas (the incident in Quantum) does fit into the greater story. After Aura disappears in Link, MaMa begins a second R.A. Plan. Sophia is one attempt to replace Aura by mass-producing her using fragments from the Akashic records, but the digital penitentiary research was an attempt to combine human minds into an "Ultimate AI" as well (as Geek mentions, it's essentially a quantum supercomputer), which in turn could be used to digitalize humanity. Neither project actually resulted in a new Ultimate AI, and Sophia was relegated to use as an anti-virus system.


A "Second R.A. Plan"? Now that sounds interesting.

But why? Its been established in //Versus that Real Digitalization doesn't require Aura. That's what the whole thing in Thanatos Report was about.  The organization split into two factions with one faction believing they still needed Aura.

So why with this "second R.A." plan?

Not only that, but given with this new information with their attempt with the Digital Bastille in Quantum, what about their manipulative experimenting with Hermit and the Black Stick? Near the end when he goes crazy and the Digital Bastille starts to "devour" the regular areas of The World itself, players were getting Soul Digitalized. Hell, even in the beginning the Digital Bastille already had numbers of Soul Digitalized players including Mary(Eri).

I doubt that anywhere where they were hoping for? Its too chaotic. Even more Mama...

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kuukai » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:21 pm

Keyaki wrote:And Pi's explanation I just counted it as her poor observation of Amagi's ambitions seeing as it seemed that she was just going off of what she learned from Banshoya's video diary (though I could be wrong). So I didn't really pay much attention that.
That doesn't seem likely, since the contents of the Banshoya files are known to us, and the NAB clearly knows a lot about Amagi and MaMa's plans. Since when does Pi throw around wildly inaccurate information, anyway?
Keyaki wrote:But I don't recall any mentioning of Ovan in Quantum, but again, I suppose I should watch it again(Thank you, Netflix). But that being the case and it apparently retconing Returner, that makes Ovan missing. Meaning I guess that would make Returner non-canon?
That's the problem: if Returner is non-canon, then several aspects of Link no longer work since it connects to Returner.
Keyaki wrote:A "Second R.A. Plan"? Now that sounds interesting.

But why? Its been established in //Versus that Real Digitalization doesn't require Aura. That's what the whole thing in Thanatos Report was about.  The organization split into two factions with one faction believing they still needed Aura.

So why with this "second R.A." plan?
Well, it's because Quantum happens before Versus. Over 5 years, Veronica Bain's anti-Aura faction conducts numerous attempts to reproduce the power of Aura and replicate Immortal Dusk without her, including all three of those plans. They have some failures before they achieve success (but it leads to technologies such as the Sophia-users seen in bullet), and even after Versus the pro-Aura Eleanor faction still seems to have considerable faith that they need Aura. The nature and limitations of the technology seen in Versus haven't been fully revealed yet, but are likely similar to the anti-Aura faction's earlier attempts.
Keyaki wrote:Not only that, but given with this new information with their attempt with the Digital Bastille in Quantum, what about their manipulative experimenting with Hermit and the Black Stick? Near the end when he goes crazy and the Digital Bastille starts to "devour" the regular areas of The World itself, players were getting Soul Digitalized. Hell, even in the beginning the Digital Bastille already had numbers of Soul Digitalized players including Mary(Eri).

I doubt that anywhere where they were hoping for? Its too chaotic. Even more Mama...
I doubt MaMa cares. They've shown they'll kill for their ideals, and no one even died. Some players just got a headstart on being part of the digital utopia. That's not a bad thing. If it helps them test their technology with plausible deniability then I'm sure they'd be all for it. Although it hasn't been revealed exactly how Hermit got the stick or if Quantum was before or after the project had been abandoned. It may have been after. Again, they probably don't care that something that dangerous is still connected to the internet. They recycled the failed Akashic Records' data into Sophia, the failed Digital Penitentiary might eventually prove useful to keep online as well.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Keyaki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:48 pm

the failed Digital Penitentiary might eventually prove useful to keep online as well.


Wait, I thought Pi destroyed the Digital Bastille at the end of Quantum with the Crest Gun-enhanced Data Drain?

That doesn't seem likely, since the contents of the Banshoya files are known to us, and the NAB clearly knows a lot about Amagi and MaMa's plans. Since when does Pi throw around wildly inaccurate information, anyway?


You saying Pi obtained more information from the NAB?

That's the problem: if Returner is non-canon, then several aspects of Link no longer work since it connects to Returner.


Meaning, that Returner was featured in Link, I assume~

You think it could be possible that its just a result of bad translation with the English dub, or is the Japanese dub saying the same thing?

Well, it's because Quantum happens before Versus. Over 5 years, Veronica Bain's anti-Aura faction conducts numerous attempts to reproduce the power of Aura and replicate Immortal Dusk without her, including all three of those plans. They have some failures before they achieve success (but it leads to technologies such as the Sophia-users seen in bullet), and even after Versus the pro-Aura Eleanor faction still seems to have considerable faith that they need Aura. The nature and limitations of the technology seen in Versus haven't been fully revealed yet, but are likely similar to the anti-Aura faction's earlier attempts.


Interestingly enough, we've seen more action from the anti-Aura faction than the pro-Aura faction, save for Thanatos Report.

Makes me wonder if Aura were to somehow just disappear completely, but even if she were to be destroyed, she'd just be reborn as we see at the of Link.

But if she were to just vanish somehow it would at least deter the pro-Aura side.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Kuukai » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:07 pm

Keyaki wrote:
the failed Digital Penitentiary might eventually prove useful to keep online as well.
Wait, I thought Pi destroyed the Digital Bastille at the end of Quantum with the Crest Gun-enhanced Data Drain?
"Might eventually have proven useful," to phrase it precisely. If the whole thing was more of an accident that an incident (we don't have enough information to know which it was, but either is plausible), that would still be understandable because they have every incentive to keep random dangerous technology on the internet. That's why the Movie happens, because the evolving virus used to spur adoption of Sophia years ago finally went out of control. And even that accident ends up being great for MaMa, because it results in the reconstitution of Aura.
Keyaki wrote:You saying Pi obtained more information from the NAB?
I' would think so, she's aware that the incident is part of something greater.
Keyaki wrote:
That's the problem: if Returner is non-canon, then several aspects of Link no longer work since it connects to Returner.
Meaning, that Returner was featured in Link, I assume~
More than that. It's definitely a problem that Returner is acknowledged by Link if we're supposed to completely forget it (I wish I could remember the contents of that chapter better, though, it's been a while since I played it), but it's even more of a problem because the story of Link begins in Returner. The colorful benign AIDA that appear in Returner eventually become  AIKA. It's hard to forget about Returner when it's one of the main continuity bridges to the story of Link.
Keyaki wrote:You think it could be possible that its just a result of bad translation with the English dub, or is the Japanese dub saying the same thing?
Unfortunately, Shamrock is just as continuity-busting in Japanese.
Keyaki wrote:Interestingly enough, we've seen more action from the anti-Aura faction than the pro-Aura faction, save for Thanatos Report.
Definitely. Although the anti-Aura faction used that time to embed themselves Hydra-style into all major government organs, from the FBI to the local police to NAB. They were as ready as they could be to spring into action the moment anyone caught a glimpse of Aura.
Keyaki wrote:Makes me wonder if Aura were to somehow just disappear completely, but even if she were to be destroyed, she'd just be reborn as we see at the of Link.
She wasn't destroyed in Link, though.  The brainwashing virus was removed from her by the vaccine gear, but even free from the virus it was taking Aura too long to revert back to normal, so AIKA used her power to make her remember. This resulted in the reversal of the Immortal Dusk, and the disappearance of Aura and AIKA in a pillar of light. Aura was damaged by the virus, and AIKA by Aura, but based on AIKA's Chim Doll, the protagonists believe she may be in a process of regenerating. Much like how Tanaka had a dream of Aura's location in Thanatos Report, in bullet Tokio has new dreams about AIKA. Aura meanwhile was stated to have wandered the network with no powers or memories, eventually returning to The World. The World FORCE:ERA itself was designed as an "altar" for her, to welcome her back (presumably by the pro-Aura faction). Meeting Sora, someone with a compatible synaptic map, allowed Aura to regrow from the little girl we see AIKA free from the virus in Link.
Keyaki wrote:But if she were to just vanish somehow it would at least deter the pro-Aura side.
That's definitely what David was fighting for and why he caged her in the first place, and that was more or less the end result of Thanatos Report, I'd think.

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Re: So about Shino... (Spoilers I suppose)

Postby Keyaki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:33 pm

"Might eventually have proven useful," to phrase it precisely. If the whole thing was more of an accident that an incident (we don't have enough information to know which it was, but either is plausible), that would still be understandable because they have every incentive to keep random dangerous technology on the internet. That's why the Movie happens, because the evolving virus used to spur adoption of Sophia years ago finally went out of control. And even that accident ends up being great for MaMa, because it results in the reconstitution of Aura.


Meaning that the Digital Bastille wasn't destroyed and the reason why the Sofia in Quantum went berserk was because it was the first instance of it being corrupted by the same Virus Bug we see in Beyond the World.

The colorful benign AIDA that appear in Returner eventually become AIKA. It's hard to forget about Returner when it's one of the main continuity bridges to the story of Link.


You mean that same AIDA we see in Returner that was in the form of a Chim Chim?

but based on AIKA's Chim Doll, the protagonists believe she may be in a process of regenerating.


What was that thing anyway?

That's definitely what David was fighting for and why he caged her in the first place, and that was more or less the end result of Thanatos Report, I'd think.


Aura's currently imprisoned in that microchip somewhere in the middle of Yosemite Park. If Tanaka can find her I'm pretty sure the pro-Aura faction of Mama would be able to as well.

I mean disappear as in just vanish somewhere within the internet.

Unfortunately, Shamrock is just as continuity-busting in Japanese.


Da fuq?


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