Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

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Megidolaon
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Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Megidolaon » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:28 pm

I'm wondering about the use of elemental resistances/attacks.
I assumed when you customize a weapon with an item that allows for elemental attacks like Wind attack/gale attack, you are able to do it and your total resistance to that element determines damage (seeing as these items only add an amount to the total of your resistance).

But what's the point? I just tested it and against an enemy (Duster Goblin) a skill did the exact same with with and without Gale attack customized as weapon ability.
Do elemental attacks only work against enemies to weak to that element?

Are spells affected by resistances?

Also, does Rengeki occur after a certain amount of damage or hits? or both?

Finally, are the Lost Weapons really worth it?
When I compare Ticking Death after 2 upgrades with a lvl 93 scythe, it only has 5 more attack. On the other hand a fully alchemized generic scythe has 25% more damage, not to mention this one is only lvl 93. And I can fully customize generic weapons, with a ginseng I'll even do 31% (or 50%?) more damage.

Which of the lost weapon actually outperform generic ones and how many upgrades do I need for that?
Thanks

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by GyppyGirl2021 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:38 pm

Rengeki occur after a certain number of hits. It varies for each weapon (broadswords will rengeki with fewer hits than dual swords, for example).

And no, the only Lost Weapon that's really worth anything is Kuhn's. The others are fairly mediocre in comparison to regular weapons (and even Kuhn's can be outdone by certain customization, though I'm sure you'd rather spare said customization for someone else). Upgrade Silent Jade to its last level and check out its abilities.

Not sure about the elemental resistance ability, but I'm pretty sure that spells are affected by tolerance/resistance. It would only make sense, because a purely elemental attack would have its damage reduced against something resistant to that element.

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Megidolaon » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:51 am

Thanks.

Though I formulated the elemental question wrongly.
I meant if Haseo's own elemental resistance influences the damage he inflicts on on enemies when using a weapon with elemental attack (gale strike, etc), doubling as elemental damage boost. It's like that in Disgaea for example.

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by hidora » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:48 pm

Megidolaon wrote:But what's the point? I just tested it and against an enemy (Duster Goblin) a skill did the exact same with with and without Gale attack customized as weapon ability.
Do elemental attacks only work against enemies to weak to that element?
The elemental attack doesn't happen 100% of the time. When it does happen, you can see a flash of light (or whatever the element is) along with the damage you've caused. Also, I think that if you're on Beast Awakening the chances of it happening increases.

At least that's what I've seen from using the Lit Honeysuckle on Reminisce (I like the looks of that weapon :3)

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Master ZED
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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Master ZED » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:13 pm

Megidolaon wrote:I'm wondering about the use of elemental resistances/attacks.
I assumed when you customize a weapon with an item that allows for elemental attacks like Wind attack/gale attack, you are able to do it and your total resistance to that element determines damage (seeing as these items only add an amount to the total of your resistance).
Powering up and defending against those attacks is pretty much the only thing the elemental scores do. Sometimes in Rebirth they seem to power up Attack Spells, but I've never been able to get hard confirmation on that, I presume because when I got the power up, something was faulty in my testing.
Megidolaon wrote:But what's the point? I just tested it and against an enemy (Duster Goblin) a skill did the exact same with with and without Gale attack customized as weapon ability.
These attacks are only usable with regular attacks. Skills and most charge attacks can't make use of them (I forget if the shockwaves of an Edge Punisher's guard break will use them, but they probably do since they can inflict Past Invite).
Megidolaon wrote:Are spells affected by resistances?
As I said before, no, and if they do, the effect is VERY poor, just like M-DEF. M-DEF is so shitty that even a 30 point boost (or an Astrologer Tome) may not have any impact, and if it does, it's 1 less damage per hit.

When spells may be doing hundreds of damage total each time you get caught by one.
Megidolaon wrote:Also, does Rengeki occur after a certain amount of damage or hits? or both?
Damage has nothing to do with Rengeki, it's all about hits and certain attacks. Any attack that adds to the hit counter will contribute towards creating Rengeki status, but only a regular attack and certain charge attacks will actually set the status into motion. A Shadow Warlock can use Attack Spells all day long on Super Charge, for example, but until they go up and hit the target with their Grimoire, there's no Rengeki to be had.
Megidolaon wrote:Finally, are the Lost Weapons really worth it?
When I compare Ticking Death after 2 upgrades with a lvl 93 scythe, it only has 5 more attack. On the other hand a fully alchemized generic scythe has 25% more damage, not to mention this one is only lvl 93. And I can fully customize generic weapons, with a ginseng I'll even do 31% (or 50%?) more damage.

Which of the lost weapon actually outperform generic ones and how many upgrades do I need for that?
Thanks
In Redemption, Silent Eden and Eternal Light are the only Lost Weapons that are irreplaceable for their respective purposes. Silent Eden upgrades Art damage by 75% and has Critical +50% tied in, while Eternal Light does the same for Attack Spells, replacing Critical +50% with Elemental +50% (50% additional chance for Elemental Hit when applicable). Even if you use Ginseng with full Alchemy (which upgrades damage by 25%, then upgrades that damage by 25% because Alchemy and attached effects are handled separately, Alchemy always coming first in that order), you won't get close enough to the potential of Silent Eden.

Likewise, while Elemental Hit only upgrades damage by 25% compared to a Critical Hit's 50% and only works with the correct elemental weakness in play (which in some cases you don't want anyway), weapon Alchemy doesn't affect Attack Spells, so Ginseng ends up a complete 50% short on every spell. However, Shadow Warlocks consume SP by the truckload, and unlike the even more hungry Cleric, a Warlock has no Rig Geam ability to help offset this, and is using this SP to attack, which makes the consumption worse than the Cleric's when you aren't having HP problems. At least Eternal Light can help make this more worthwhile and can't be replaced.

As for which is actually useful, well, Silent Eden would be awesome if Dust Bullet didn't exist. Eternal Light is awesome, if you're willing to pay off Sakubo's SP costs.

The runner-ups would be Dancing Haze/Flame Dancer, whose No Interrupt on a weapon is somewhat useful and cannot be duplicated, and Seductive Rose, which mixes the longer lasting Charm of a Seductive Counter armor and Jet Speed Attack into a blade. That sounds great until you realize your characters are less apt to attack a Confused or Charmed target. Depending on your reaction, you might end up settling for a fully Alchemized JSA weapon instead. Pi's weapon is only good for the longer Paralysis ailment overall, and her constant regular attacking would end up making the additional time useless compared to a regular weapon with Paralysis Attack. Shadowy Death has the highest HP Drain of any weapon until you can access 3 Physique Grasp, but HP Drain is trash in all but the rarest of circumstances (it just doesn't heal enough to be helpful), and its SP Drain is beaten by Heine's Zero which you likely already have, or an Ein Baku Jawbone (SP Drain +50% for both; Spirit Grasp was upgraded in Redemption, though the in-game text doesn't reflect this).

As for Voice Cleanser, Confusion in any form on a weapon that always hits more than once is just Sleep Attack under a new name, and the second level Strategic Attack relies on Attack Spell elemental weakness, NOT elemental scores, which is completely ridiculous since that means it randomizes on anything that doesn't have a weakness, including all PC's. Then again, Yata's weapons are trash for the most part anyway. There's little you can do to make them worthwhile.

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Megidolaon » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:55 pm

ZED!
Thanks for the great reply!
As I said before, no, and if they do, the effect is VERY poor, just like M-DEF. M-DEF is so shitty that even a 30 point boost (or an Astrologer Tome) may not have any impact, and if it does, it's 1 less damage per hit.
Just noticed that. Astrologer's Tome + Magician's Trump and barely any difference at all.

Just to confirm, Silent Eden is Kuhn's Bayonet and Eternal Light is Sakubo's tome?
I just boosted Kuhn's lost weapon as much as you can with virus cores and next up is the boss fight, lvl 135 was it?
I'm only lvl 103/105/108 with Kuhn/Atoli/Haseo, but I'll try beating that boss.
Should be ok as long as I do at least 1 damage and don't get oneshotted by every attack...then again with that damage formula it might be impossible after all.
Silent Eden would be awesome if Dust Bullet didn't exist.
Dust Bullet? Is that a skill? What's the problem?
The runner-ups would be Dancing Haze/Flame Dancer, whose No Interrupt on a weapon is somewhat useful and cannot be duplicated,
Not on a weapon, but since Atoli rarely gets into HP trouble, I might put that on her armor.
and Seductive Rose, which mixes the longer lasting Charm of a Seductive Counter armor and Jet Speed Attack into a blade.
Been actually wondering how useful charm and confuse are. I'd stick to paralysis which was awesome in Reminiscence, but enemy resistance against it has gotten too high to bother.
it just doesn't heal enough to be helpful), and its SP Drain is beaten by Heine's Zero which you likely already have, or an Ein Baku Jawbone (SP Drain +50% for both; Spirit Grasp was upgraded in Redemption, though the in-game text doesn't reflect this).
I don't have any Doppelganger stuff cause I didn't kill any yet. I tried in Reminiscence, but that ridiculous HP regen made it impossible to kill him. Is there a way to bypass it (my left arm for dispel/dekaja) or what's a lvl when you can dish out enough damage so it doesn't really matter anymore?
Though, fighting him is pointless if I can't get the doppelganger equipment anyway.
Then again, Yata's weapons are trash for the most part anyway.
Last time I didn't even look at Yata, didn't strike me as particularly useful.
I'm trying to focus on Kuhn/Atoli cause they seem to be my forced team for the tournament, but will others get forced into my party, like that awful last minute switch for the last arena fight in Reminiscence?

I have one question regarding rengeki spamming for lvling.
I tend to use either equip exp boosting stuff (need me more sapphire eyes) or a time conch for quick trigger recharge (so I don't miss a rengeki chance).
This strikes me as more useful than quick rengeki/jet stream attack because frequently you get a rengeki, but your skill trigger is empty, so I probably wouldn't be able to use more rengekis that way.
BUT, does jet stream attack also works if I have other party members equip it?
Like giving Haseo a time conch to be ready for rengeki and having the others quickly build rengekis all the time?

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Master ZED » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:30 pm

Megidolaon wrote:Just to confirm, Silent Eden is Kuhn's Bayonet and Eternal Light is Sakubo's tome?
Yip.
Megidolaon wrote:I just boosted Kuhn's lost weapon as much as you can with virus cores and next up is the boss fight, lvl 135 was it?
I'm only lvl 103/105/108 with Kuhn/Atoli/Haseo, but I'll try beating that boss.
Should be ok as long as I do at least 1 damage and don't get oneshotted by every attack...then again with that damage formula it might be impossible after all.
The damage formula only helps damage, it does not hinder it. If your level is four or less than the opponent's, you're just not getting any Level upgrade, that's all. By late Reminisce at worst, your statistics should be making up for some of the difference here.

But yeah, you're gonna get one-shotted by every attack without the proper protection, as there's no upper limit to Level's assistance (it will eventually take every applicable attack to its maximum of 9999 or some fraction thereof). The only noteworthy difference between the bosses for the final Lost Weapon versions is that they use the weapon effect for the weapon they guard, so Haseo's will absorb 75% HP/35% SP on random regular attacks (so you have to use Beast Awakening at those levels), Atoli's will only absorb SP but can't be interrupted on spell casts either, Kuhn's gets Critical +50% on physicals but can't make use of the Art upgrade, etc. If you can't use Indulgence for whatever reason, use 2 Anti-Light effects to nullify OrLei Zas (the only long range it has) and get a full Morale gauge going, then finish the fight using powerful damage-based weapons and Skill Boost on Beast Awakening. They're slow enough that you can get a Rengeki going first before initiating the Beast.

This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brzFO631DWY

will horrify any of those bastards into a coma.

This is an alternative if you want to pick on them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcIr-XgH0aI

That second one won't work on the Undying because with such high damage, its HP Drain +75% will be like Pha Repth in practice. That's the painful truth of HP Drain in .hack; it only produces useful healing when your damage is overkill, and unfortunately, the only time a powerful enemy is mixed with weak enough scum for that to help you out is the final storyline boss (Level is around 135, minions at 123).
Megidolaon wrote:Dust Bullet? Is that a skill? What's the problem?
It's the Lv.3 Art for Steam Gunners. However, "Lv.2.5" is a better way of describing it because it mixes the benefits of Lv.3 Arts (lower SP cost and lower recharge time at higher weapon levels) with the key benefit of Lv.1 and 2 Arts (speeds up during Beast Awakening).

The problems start with Dust Bullet being painfully slow to come out; once the cursor finds a target, the caster goes into a spin, stands still, fires upward, and then the shower of bullets comes down for four powerful hits. This all takes a few seconds to play out before doing any damage, unlike every other Art in the entire game, and makes any Steam Gunner a wide-open target for Hangeki in the Arena. If enemy leaders were more aggressive against your teammates, you could never bring Kuhn or Matsu in after they reached weapon level 21, at least not under Free Will or Rage.

When you fight Taihaku, this is the Art he keeps trying to use on you.

Problem 2 is that your teammates limit themselves to their most powerful skills unless they're using healing spells, at which point they actually try to use something more appropriate. "Most powerful" is in regards to the Art level, not actual damage done, which is why someone like Zelkova will spam Reaper's Dance when Heavenly Wheel outclasses it in pretty much every way. For some classes, this isn't a bad idea, but during Beast Awakening or for Steam Gunners, this is a horrible practice.

Speaking of which, remember how I said Dust Bullet is the only Lv.3 Art Beast Awakening speeds up? Guess what? The quicker animation causes two of its four hits to miss completely! That of course means Dust Bullet actually weakens overall under Awakening conditions, so the one advantage it has over other Lv.3's backfires! Isn't that just precious.... -_-
Megidolaon wrote:Been actually wondering how useful charm and confuse are. I'd stick to paralysis which was awesome in Reminiscence, but enemy resistance against it has gotten too high to bother.
Confusion and Charm are pretty much the same ailment, but with one key difference; Confusion can be knocked away by another damaging attack, and it has an item and spell designed to remove it (Lucid Soda and Rip Ranki). Charm requires the all-ailment removing Wonder Soda or Rip Palam, or else you have to wait for the timer to run out. Thankfully or unfortunately, Charm's timer isn't very long.

There's a couple catches to Charm (and presumably Confusion for one of these), however: it messes with allies when you inflict it on an enemy (and presumably vice versa), and it causes the afflicted to be considered something of a neutral party. The ally AI will often be reluctant to attack a Confused or Charmed opponent, which is great for Confusion, but for Charm, where it's safe to attack without removing the ailment, it gets annoying quick. The "neutral party" thing only comes into play if you have a habit of unleashing guard breaks, like I do. The punted enchantee will be able to hit anyone in-flight, enemy and ally alike, including you. This won't kill you unless you're playing at really low levels, but it's rather inconvenient all the same for me because I love spamming the broadsword break.
Megidolaon wrote:I don't have any Doppelganger stuff cause I didn't kill any yet. I tried in Reminiscence, but that ridiculous HP regen made it impossible to kill him. Is there a way to bypass it (my left arm for dispel/dekaja) or what's a lvl when you can dish out enough damage so it doesn't really matter anymore?
Awakening nullifies almost all attachment effects the enemy has for its duration, with exception to status immunity. This includes Damage Change, Physical/Magic -%, regeneration, etc. It is, in practice, .hack's version of Ultima.

Besides, Dispel usually doesn't remove equipment-based status, which is exactly what you're dealing with here (Doppel Accessory 2: An attachment effect on Doppel's Truly Feared and Shadow accessories that grants permanent IMOQ-style Rig Saem). :\
Megidolaon wrote:Though, fighting him is pointless if I can't get the doppelganger equipment anyway.
If you haven't played Rebirth, you can still get Heine's Shadow and Heine's Zero by going back to Reminisce; Heine's Invasion, the missing weapon, is crap anyway, you aren't missing anything there. Without beating Doppel once in Rebirth and twice in Reminisce (the latter of which you have to do for Heine's Zero anyway), you can't get Other Self and Shadow, but that armor and accessory are LV. 150 equipment and are only available in the post-game anyway. You can get DG-0 from him in Redemption no matter what after you've achieved Xth Form (there's no such form limitation in Reminisce on Heine's Zero).
Megidolaon wrote:
Then again, Yata's weapons are trash for the most part anyway.
Last time I didn't even look at Yata, didn't strike me as particularly useful.
He's actually very useful once you solve his Affection problem. He's the only character who has Ap Do, Rig Saem, Rig Geam, AND combo Favorites, the most easily abused Favorite of all once you have Xth Form. For an Awakening spammer, he is the perfect support mage and an irreplaceable character in the FoP.

If you're not an Awakening spam-artist, though, stick to Clerics. You don't really need Lapu Do anyway. :\
Megidolaon wrote:I'm trying to focus on Kuhn/Atoli cause they seem to be my forced team for the tournament, but will others get forced into my party, like that awful last minute switch for the last arena fight in Reminiscence?
For the Arena? No.
Megidolaon wrote:I have one question regarding rengeki spamming for lvling.
I tend to use either equip exp boosting stuff (need me more sapphire eyes) or a time conch for quick trigger recharge (so I don't miss a rengeki chance).
This strikes me as more useful than quick rengeki/jet stream attack because frequently you get a rengeki, but your skill trigger is empty, so I probably wouldn't be able to use more rengekis that way.
BUT, does jet stream attack also works if I have other party members equip it?
Like giving Haseo a time conch to be ready for rengeki and having the others quickly build rengekis all the time?
First, Item LV. 116+ Fire fields. Leviathan loves handing out Sapphire Eyes on those, as his repertoire doesn't change that much on Sigma server. You can sell them in the shop by attaching them to accessories if you get too many (or just trash them; only Radars and Lost Weapons can't be trashed).

But yes, other party members can initiate the Rengeki status, they just can't make use of it because they lack the Skill Trigger. While they're crappy otherwise, Blade Brandiers have the same Rengeki induction ability as their more useful Edge Punisher counterparts. If you get two Brandiers and Haseo to gang up on some schmuck with JSA weapons, you'll get Rengeki in no time flat compared to what would happen otherwise.

Just remember that Quick Rengeki, Jet Speed Attack, and their equivalents work on anyone regardless of level (a rare breed of offensive upgrade), but only affect your regular attacks and anything else that falls into that category (a Punisher's charge attack shockwaves for example); they do not boost Skills or guard break strikes.

EDIT: Speaking of Time Conch, if you've yet to do the Reminisce Bike Missions, take time out to go do 1, 2, and 5 at least, most importantly 2. If you wait until Redemption, the items are heavily improved in the first five missions.

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Megidolaon » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:42 am

Thanks gain!
The damage formula only helps damage, it does not hinder it. If your level is four or less than the opponent's, you're just not getting any Level upgrade, that's all. By late Reminisce at worst, your statistics should be making up for some of the difference here.
Nah. I tried it and the bosses spells did 9999 damage with each hit. That damage formula is truly ridiculous. Even I came up with better ones.
On my last playthrough I did sutff like this all the time for lvling up quickly, going to dungeons 15+ lvl higher, but this time I realized it's mostly pointless cause the battles take too long and in the end dungeons 7-10 lvls higher get you exp the fastest, without risking a game over every 5 seconds.
Though more importantly, that +75% arts damage effect on Silent Eden only comes after that boss fight? I checked it and so far it only adds 30 to phys attack and +25% arts damage.
So, I just gave him a generic bayonet with jet speed attack for the moment. Actually, I might stick to this for the sake of frequent rengeki, even if Silent Eden after the boss upgrade is that much stronger.
The problems start with Dust Bullet being painfully slow to come out; once the cursor finds a target, the caster goes into a spin, stands still, fires upward, and then the shower of bullets comes down for four powerful hits.
Ahh, that one. I already wondered what kind of weird skill Kuhn tries to use, but never manages to pull off cause enemies always interrupt him.
When you fight Taihaku, this is the Art he keeps trying to use on you.
XD, sounds like an easy battle. I also have some bayonet angels, so I guess that boss fight will be easy.
which is why someone like Zelkova will spam Reaper's Dance when Heavenly Wheel outclasses it in pretty much every way.
Reaper's Dance is inferior? I thought the damage was higher, or at least the same. And I stopped using Heavenly Wheel cause it doesn't hit enemies that don't get thrown into the air.
Speaking of which, remember how I said Dust Bullet is the only Lv.3 Art Beast Awakening speeds up? Guess what? The quicker animation causes two of its four hits to miss completely! That of course means Dust Bullet actually weakens overall under Awakening conditions, so the one advantage it has over other Lv.3's backfires! Isn't that just precious.... -_-
I hate it when rpgs aren't properly playtested so that the intended most powerful spells/skills/weapons end up as useless or a distant second to other, supposedly weaker things.
The punted enchantee will be able to hit anyone in-flight, enemy and ally alike, including you. This won't kill you unless you're playing at really low levels, but it's rather inconvenient all the same for me because I love spamming the broadsword break.
Hmm, doesn't sound that useful, I'm mainly looking for a way to substitute paralysis on enemies cause they are so resistant against it, but I guess I just stick to ginseng then.
Awakening nullifies almost all attachment effects the enemy has for its duration, with exception to status immunity. This includes Damage Change, Physical/Magic -%, regeneration, etc. It is, in practice, .hack's version of Ultima.

Besides, Dispel usually doesn't remove equipment-based status, which is exactly what you're dealing with here (Doppel Accessory 2: An attachment effect on Doppel's Truly Feared and Shadow accessories that grants permanent IMOQ-style Rig Saem). :\
:/
Then I guess until lvl 146 was it, there is no point in trying to beat the Doppelganger. Last time I tried I pulled off several awakenings, but the doppelganger always fully recovered from them.
If you're not an Awakening spam-artist, though, stick to Clerics. You don't really need Lapu Do anyway. :\
I equip and setup everything for Rengeki spammage.
I guess I'll give even Atoli a shogun's fan cause I caught her attacking with her weapon at times when set to free will (setting her to only attack with weapon is pointless though).
EDIT: Speaking of Time Conch, if you've yet to do the Reminisce Bike Missions, take time out to go do 1, 2, and 5 at least, most importantly 2. If you wait until Redemption, the items are heavily improved in the first five missions.
I'm trying to stay the hell away from bike missions after that one with the 5 goblins in Reminiscence.

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by GyppyGirl2021 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:07 pm

Hey, if I was able to defeat the seal guardians in Volume 3 at level 105, you should be able to beat them at a similarly low level. :P

You can abuse Atoli's Favorite Action to an extent - she likes it when you heal her at low HP, and if you get the timing right on the heal, you can revive someone with an ordinary healing item rather than revival medicine. (There are a few other characters with that Favorite Action too - Gaspard and Endrance come to mind.) Since healing FAs seem to give more of a morale boost than combo FAs, you can just Awakening-spam on the boss. And it doesn't have to be an expensive healing item either, especially since they're just going to go down in one hit anyway. XD

And also, on Silent Eden... I like to go with a different bayonet as well, because I'd rather Rengeki (similar to your tactic actually). However, when it comes to hands-down ownage, it's the best Lost Weapon. :P

Actually, now that ZED mentions it, Eternal Light's bonus sounds pretty sweet too, especially since level 2 spells don't deal enough damage for their SP cost. Combine it with Magic Mastery?

Also, on Flame Dancer, I have a question of my own... is it worthwhile to use it when alchemy doesn't affect attack spells? While SP Drain on a staff is pretty useless, a free No Interrupt sounds really good because I like to attach Damage Change on Atoli's armor, plus it's nigh impossible to get Spell Noble in Volume 3 with no data transfer.

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Master ZED » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:18 pm

Megidolaon wrote:Nah. I tried it and the bosses spells did 9999 damage with each hit.
Isn't that what I said in the very next paragraph? :\

Maybe I should make it clearer; Level cannot hinder damage, it can only help it. This goes for allies and enemies alike. When the target's level is four or more above the attacker's, the attacker is simply not getting any assistance from level. Starting with three levels below the target's and going up, the attacker is assisted up to a theoretical infinity, stopping obviously at whatever the damage cap may be (usually 9999, but some attacks, or certain hits during Skills, apply a lower cap). This means that your stats in Redemption allow you to do enough damage to not be an invalid at any level, but if you're too low, you're gonna die very quickly.

Of course, there are ways to exploit being low leveled.
Megidolaon wrote:Though more importantly, that +75% arts damage effect on Silent Eden only comes after that boss fight? I checked it and so far it only adds 30 to phys attack and +25% arts damage.
Yeah, the upgraded effect is reserved for the last level.
Megidolaon wrote:So, I just gave him a generic bayonet with jet speed attack for the moment. Actually, I might stick to this for the sake of frequent rengeki, even if Silent Eden after the boss upgrade is that much stronger.
I wouldn't even bother using Gunners if I were looking for Rengeki, since Brandiers are better at it... but if that's what you want....
Megidolaon wrote:
When you fight Taihaku, this is the Art he keeps trying to use on you.
XD, sounds like an easy battle. I also have some bayonet angels, so I guess that boss fight will be easy.
Well, it'll probably be easy anyway (given this is G.U.), but don't get too cocky.

Not gonna say why.
Megidolaon wrote:Reaper's Dance is inferior?
Yip. Here's my test damage chart so you can see how powerful each Art is:

Code: Select all

=====
Flick Reaper
=====

Test subject: Chickie Gramma [flying ability nulled] (FoP, phase 19)

Normal damage: 55

Wicked Strike  - 99, 132
Lotus Flower   - 81, 66, 99
Reaper's Touch - 81, 66, 81, 81, 99
Heavenly Wheel - 95, 68, 110, 110, 176
Reaper's Dance - 44, 88, 88, 40, 40, 40, 88

Translation

Wicked Strike  - 1.8X, 2.4X                                 : 4.2X
Lotus Flower   - 1.47X, 1.2X, 1.8X                          : 4.47X
Reaper's Touch - 1.47X, 1.2X, 1.47X, 1.47X, 1.8X            : 7.41X
Heavenly Wheel - 1.73X, 1.24X, 2X, 2X, 3.2X                 : 10.17X
Reaper's Dance - 0.8X, 1.6X, 1.6X, 0.73X, 0.73X, 0.73X, 1.6X: 7.79X
This is obviously inexact, but close to what the Arts of a Flick Reaper actually do. The reason this is accurate at all is because the damage formula doesn't use a randomizing calculation anywhere in it. For reference, "Normal damage" is what a single regular attack does (1X damage).
Megidolaon wrote:And I stopped using Heavenly Wheel cause it doesn't hit enemies that don't get thrown into the air.
Which enemies would those be? I'm thinking maybe Doppel, but only because I haven't kicked his ass in a long while and don't remember if it hits him or not.
Megidolaon wrote:I hate it when rpgs aren't properly playtested so that the intended most powerful spells/skills/weapons end up as useless or a distant second to other, supposedly weaker things.
Well, that's not the worst thing in the game. The free healing bug was never fixed in any version of G.U., and is so easily abused.
Megidolaon wrote:Hmm, doesn't sound that useful, I'm mainly looking for a way to substitute paralysis on enemies cause they are so resistant against it
Jet Speed Attack. Rengeki paralyzes in almost the same way an Awakening does (strips away all abilities save for walking; Awakening slows you down too as I recall, which Rengeki doesn't do), and the one thing it doesn't stop you from doing is something the CPU won't use once afflicted; it just gives up until it's free.

It may be short in duration, but there's no immunity to Rengeki status either.
Megidolaon wrote:Then I guess until lvl 146 was it, there is no point in trying to beat the Doppelganger. Last time I tried I pulled off several awakenings, but the doppelganger always fully recovered from them.
If you're lacking power in Redemption, the solution is usually Skill Boost. Go hit the Breg Epona Material Shop for some Skill Candles. Trust me, double SP cost means nothing outside the Arena for the sheer power it grants.

There's also stuff like the 210 Engine for your bike you can use as well. Shock ailments last at least five minutes each (five being how long Shock Tempt, or the bike's Charm attack, lasts), and you can buy the ones for Poison, Curse, and Paralysis at Breg Epona's bike shop. Doppel has no ailment immunity, so exploit that as much as possible.
Megidolaon wrote:I guess I'll give even Atoli a shogun's fan cause I caught her attacking with her weapon at times when set to free will (setting her to only attack with weapon is pointless though).
Agreed on Tenacity to a point (Tenacity makes your characters start healing themselves or others using items at < 50% max HP), but Jet Speed Attack won't be too helpful. Staffs and Grimoires are the worst Rengeki induction weapons, requiring at least 30 or so hits (when unassisted) on a small enemy or PC and just going up from there. Skills do assist with creating Rengeki status at a pretty good rate; they just can't trigger its activation. To that end, if you want Atoli to assist with Rengeki, the best thing to do would be to let her use Skill Boost only for Rig Geam to keep her SP up, and then set her to Rage.

Honestly? Unless you're dealing with Sakubo, Clerics > Warlocks at nearly anything in Redemption, and that includes attacking (they save greatly on SP costs in comparison when you micromanage how and when they heal the party instead of "Durrr, I set Atloi to Life strategery cuz Clerik = heling an ir smrt!"). About the only time Warlocks beat Clerics is at using ailment spells in the Arena.
Megidolaon wrote:I'm trying to stay the hell away from bike missions after that one with the 5 goblins in Reminiscence.
Then cheat. Also this.

Trust me on course 2. You really want the Bell of Time if you're worried about the recharge meter. Empireo at Breg Epona sells it too, but it is an extremely rare item that could have you pulling a lot more teeth than cheating a bike mission would.

EDIT:
GyppyGirl2021 wrote:Actually, now that ZED mentions it, Eternal Light's bonus sounds pretty sweet too, especially since level 2 spells don't deal enough damage for their SP cost. Combine it with Magic Mastery?
I tend to combine it with Shadow, but as long as you can pay for the SP cost somehow (Magic Mastery, Zen Mastery, getting a Cleric to use Skill Boosted Rig Geam...), Eternal Light can be a vicious weapon.

You could always do some micromanaging too y'know, limiting them to Lv.1 spells from the menu with Tenacity... but who wants to go back to the IMOQ style?

...well, I still want the Chat menu back if nothing else.
GyppyGirl2021 wrote:Also, on Flame Dancer, I have a question of my own... is it worthwhile to use it when alchemy doesn't affect attack spells? While SP Drain on a staff is pretty useless, a free No Interrupt sounds really good because I like to attach Damage Change on Atoli's armor, plus it's nigh impossible to get Spell Noble in Volume 3 with no data transfer.
Sure. With weapon Alchemy's only use being on physical attacks, there's no pressing need to alchemize a Cleric or Warlock weapon. Fan Jasper, sure, since fans are easily the best pure physical attack weapon a mage can ask for (sadly), but yes, since Alchemy is usually useless to a mage, you should only be looking at M-ATK and slot number for their weapons, or elemental Attack value if you're trying to exploit elemental stat weakness on your physicals (such Attack attachments do magic-based damage, so again, weapon Alchemy doesn't apply).

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by GyppyGirl2021 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:10 pm

So wait, the reason Atoli was able to do so much damage to Goriki in that one vid was because elemental equipment attachments do magic damage instead of physical? That would make a whole lot more sense... unless I'm reading something wrong...

And yay, I'm not delusional! Clerics really are better than Warlocks! But wait, does that give Atoli any advantages over Shino like Sakubo > Gaspard? >.>

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Master ZED » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:18 pm

GyppyGirl2021 wrote:So wait, the reason Atoli was able to do so much damage to Goriki in that one vid was because elemental equipment attachments do magic damage instead of physical? That would make a whole lot more sense... unless I'm reading something wrong...
Well, no, I didn't bother clarifying again because I forgot to mention something not well known. From what I've seen, only elemental stats determine elemental Attack damage, or that the stats just have a huge impact. If Goriki was using a Fire accessory and had an already pitiful Water stat to begin with, that would definitely explain things since Atoli, IIRC, has the best Water stat on Haseo's team. I'd have to look again 'cause I don't remember if it's Atoli or Shino on top, but just from looking at those two, high Water affinity seems to be a common trait among Clerics. They have really good elemental stats either way.

What I meant by magic is that most every attack in the game either has the physical or magic "element." That means an elemental Attack vs. Haseo using Silad and Steel Crest armor will do nothing, no matter the element, due to the practical Null Magic property. If he's just wearing two Anti-Light, only Light Attack and Holy Light are nulled because only one of the seven applicable elements are in play. That might be more confusing, but I can't edit anymore for now.
GyppyGirl2021 wrote:And yay, I'm not delusional! Clerics really are better than Warlocks!
Overall, yeah, I have to give them the advantage because Warlocks are completely based in offense, like a physical fighter. Dancers get some form of support, and Clerics have better regeneration support and unique healing/ailment curing spells to boot, plus like you said, Lv.2 spells aren't very cost-effective.
GyppyGirl2021 wrote:But wait, does that give Atoli any advantages over Shino like Sakubo > Gaspard? >.>
Without looking at her stats, it really depends on how much you treasure that No Interrupt weapon. Sakubo > Gaspard comes from Eternal Light being such a terrifying weapon and Bo having combo Favorites, the perfect Xth Form Morale booster. I don't have time right now to measure stats, but if Atoli > Shino is true, I'd imagine it's because of both the Lost Weapon having such a unique property and the lack of weapon Alchemy effect on magics.

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Megidolaon » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:46 am

Hey, if I was able to defeat the seal guardians in Volume 3 at level 105, you should be able to beat them at a similarly low level.
I probably could, if I tried. But I'm too lazy. And I wanna try if giving Kuhn jet speed attack might be better anyway and if I won't use him after the tournament either.
You can abuse Atoli's Favorite Action to an extent - she likes it when you heal her at low HP, and if you get the timing right on the heal, you can revive someone with an ordinary healing item rather than revival medicine.
I don't even know what favorite actions do. I thought the "Favorite" next to the character stats when I do a Rengeki is just a random statement with no meaning.
Actually, now that ZED mentions it, Eternal Light's bonus sounds pretty sweet too, especially since level 2 spells don't deal enough damage for their SP cost. Combine it with Magic Mastery?
I hate Sakubo and my playing style doesn't have a place for a shadow warlock in the first place. For Rengeki spammage you best use Haseo, some other physical attacker and Atoli as healer. If the enemy doesn't do that high damage you can set her to free will for spell usage and the occasional staff smack.
Maybe I should make it clearer; Level cannot hinder damage, it can only help it. This goes for allies and enemies alike. When the target's level is four or more above the attacker's, the attacker is simply not getting any assistance from level. Starting with three levels below the target's and going up, the attacker is assisted up to a theoretical infinity, stopping obviously at whatever the damage cap may be (usually 9999, but some attacks, or certain hits during Skills, apply a lower cap). This means that your stats in Redemption allow you to do enough damage to not be an invalid at any level, but if you're too low, you're gonna die very quickly.
But the result is the same :?
I still deal low damage (still ok as long as it isn't 0) and the boss still does 9999 damage x 4-6 with every spell.
I don't feel like a no sphere grid challenge >_>
Of course, there are ways to exploit being low leveled.
I might make use of that doppelganger tactic if I feel like getting his equipment. But it seems to me kinda broken and I wanna lvl up normally on some fields without getting too overpowered for story fights. I'm already several lvls above arena fights, so I fear if I get any stronger it'll just be boring.
As for Gaspard's damage counter, what was that? "Damage counter" is a 3 slot armor ability like fire counter? And it counters with the same damage the character receives? Does that mean it's much more effective when the character has a lower lvl than the enemy?
I wouldn't even bother using Gunners if I were looking for Rengeki, since Brandiers are better at it... but if that's what you want....
I'm just using him for the tournament. Later I might use Endrance (I do like his high stats) or Alkaid (if I can get her back to a decent lvl)...or maybe Natsume. Just need 1 more chaotic PK.
Who would you recommend as 3rd slot (Haseo and Atoli are always in my party) for quick Rengeki building?
Well, it'll probably be easy anyway (given this is G.U.), but don't get too cocky.
Yeah :(
Just tried the fight and it was annoying. I'm already 4 lvls higher, but his stupid high priority move that interrupts Rengekis and awakenings alike is just a pain in the ass. I'ma get a bit higher so I can one or two shot him.

I kinda forgot what comes afterwards, but
 iirc there isn't much more other than finding out cubia, then everyone coming back/joining and the last part is just getting AIDA seeds/cores/whatever in outer dungeons to unlock something so I can face off against cubia as final boss fight? I remember there being some interlude with Yata getting his avatar, but gameplay wise nothing more than generic inner/outer dungeons for the rest of the game? Or am I forgetting something?
Which enemies would those be? I'm thinking maybe Doppel, but only because I haven't kicked his ass in a long while and don't remember if it hits him or not.
Chickies and/or goblins. I found that reaper's touch/dance have a better range/connectivity than heavenly wheel. When I tried heavenly wheel a few times only like half the hits connected to enemies on the sides, while all or almost all of reaper's touche/dance's hits connect. Maybe heavenly wheel pushes enemies away a little.
Well, that's not the worst thing in the game. The free healing bug was never fixed in any version of G.U., and is so easily abused.
So, it's basically switching equipment to something giving an SP bonus in the middle of the fight, which results in getting a free SP refill?
If you're lacking power in Redemption, the solution is usually Skill Boost. Go hit the Breg Epona Material Shop for some Skill Candles. Trust me, double SP cost means nothing outside the Arena for the sheer power it grants.
Yeah, I noticed. Thanks to this I oneshotted a good deal of arena opponents and monsters alike.
Then cheat. Also this.
Sweet! I'm gonna try this.
...well, I still want the Chat menu back if nothing else.
Chat menu? Like this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/P ... getoff.jpg ???

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by TheSorrow » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:46 pm

I don't even know what favorite actions do. I thought the "Favorite" next to the character stats when I do a Rengeki is just a random statement with no meaning.
"Favorite" actions are actions that fills up the Morale bar. Characters have different Favorite actions between them, which can be Healing Favorites (gives a Morale boost when healed at low HP), Combo Favorites (gives the boost whenever the 16th hit of a combo is delivered, and only the 16th hit, not the 32th or any other; you have to restart the combo to be able to get the favorite action again), Killshot Favorites (gives the boost when they kill an enemy)....And i think there's another but i don't think so. And a Rengeki action will always be a Favorite action for your team, so you'll get a Morale boost everytime there's someone with you and you do a Rengeki.

You can see an example of how easy is to use and abuse the Healing Favorites here. After Haseo receiving around 20,000 damage, i quickly get up and fill my Morale bar in around 15 seconds XD :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiK8r6M2Fik
But the result is the same :?
I still deal low damage (still ok as long as it isn't 0) and the boss still does 9999 damage x 4-6 with every spell.
I don't feel like a no sphere grid challenge >_>
LOL, a Low-Level GU game is like a HUNDRED times easier than a No Sphere Grid challenge XD Sure, you might deal low damage while the enemies will all kill you in 1 hit...However, you don't need to do insane item farming for Dark Matters or whatever was needed for Trio of 9999, beg for luck that you don't run into certain enemies, and spend 3 hours against a single boss figuring out their exact patterns so you can keep perfect track of all turns to attack and revive and defend and whatever. In GU, the attacks that hit all party members are RARE, since they're all mostly ranged attacks and won't kill your entire party unless Haseo and Atoli felt like making out in the middle of the battle and Endrance didn't want to be left behind. And the main reason why GU low level challenge is so darn easy....Beast and Demon Awakenings.

Demon Awakening with Skill Boost is indeed Ultima, while Beast Awakening has to be the cheapest and most broken status condition in all RPGs. It's pretty much "Haste on all party + Stop on all enemies + Level conditions negated + Supportive status on enemies negated + Equipment on enemy negated" (and while used against you, "Slow + Inability to attack and defend" instead of Stop....all that changes is that you're able to move slowly before being mauled >3>)...It no longer matters if you're lv105 and the enemy is lv145, with BA you'll inflict damage as if you were lv145, and all your weapon customizations will come into effect as well (something that doesn't happen all the time while being 5+ levels lower). My video above might not be the best example of BA's destruction level (since i do quite enough damage already, despite being 19 levels lower), but there's seriously nothing that can't be destroyed by Beast Awakening, regardless of level and regardless if it's Doppel with even Null Physical/Null Magic/Status Immunity (if something like that existed XD).

Divine Awakening looks spiffy and can do good damage but not great, and Avatar Awakening is only useful for Virus Cores. And sure, both can do up to 9999 damage...But, at the time you're able to inflict that much damage, you would inflict over 20,000 on a BA if enemies survived for that much XD
I might make use of that doppelganger tactic if I feel like getting his equipment. But it seems to me kinda broken and I wanna lvl up normally on some fields without getting too overpowered for story fights. I'm already several lvls above arena fights, so I fear if I get any stronger it'll just be boring.
IMO, the average level to finish Redemption is around 130, assuming you don't spam Awakenings and cheap strategies like that. Any more and everything else will feel so easy and 30 attacks will barely hurt you while you win in 5, and any less will require you to go cheap or figure out "professional" strategies unless you want battles to last for 30 min. And using those strategies and such, the average level to finish the game is around 105-110, and that's because it already becomes complicated to try to be lower than that XD
As for Gaspard's damage counter, what was that? "Damage counter" is a 3 slot armor ability like fire counter? And it counters with the same damage the character receives? Does that mean it's much more effective when the character has a lower lvl than the enemy?
"Damage Counter" refers to those 3-slot counters such like Fireleaf or Tidegrass, with abilities such like "Blaze Counter" or "Flood Counter", and they have a chance of inflicting half the damage received as elemental damage, though it's "fixed damage" so i don't think element truly matters. So, if your characters receive 9999 damage per hit, it's so darn easy to abuse counters, inflicting almost 5000 damage everytime the counter activates. There are 2-slot counters too, but they only inflict 1/4 of the damage, and the chances of the counter activating are the very same.
*spoiler spoiler* Or am I forgetting something?
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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by GyppyGirl2021 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:46 pm

Unless I feel like being different or she's not available, Atoli is pretty much always in my party. Third party member is either Kuhn or Silabus. I'm a strong advocate of "using your favorites", and since G.U. is so easy otherwise, there's no reason not to. :P

And don't whine to me about laziness. I am the embodiment of everything lazy. :P
In GU, the attacks that hit all party members are RARE, since they're all mostly ranged attacks and won't kill your entire party unless Haseo and Atoli felt like making out in the middle of the battle and Endrance didn't want to be left behind.
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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Gomorrah » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:07 pm

On Heavenly Wheel, it actually has a better range than Reaper's Dance, usually because the first hit for the skill is often missed, not to mention, Heavenly Wheel deals a greater amount of damage, and if the enemies aren't launched up in the air, then somehow, someway, Flick Reapers connect with those arieal slashes.

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Re: Elemental attacks and Rengeki?

Post by Megidolaon » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:21 pm

Demon Awakening with Skill Boost is indeed Ultima, while Beast Awakening has to be the cheapest and most broken status condition in all RPGs. It's pretty much "Haste on all party + Stop on all enemies + Level conditions negated + Supportive status on enemies negated + Equipment on enemy negated" (and while used against you, "Slow + Inability to attack and defend" instead of Stop....all that changes is that you're able to move slowly before being mauled >3>)
Oh, that does sound nice. Will use against next tough enemy.
IMO, the average level to finish Redemption is around 130, assuming you don't spam Awakenings and cheap strategies like that. Any more and everything else will feel so easy and 30 attacks will barely hurt you while you win in 5, and any less will require you to go cheap or figure out "professional" strategies unless you want battles to last for 30 min. And using those strategies and such, the average level to finish the game is around 105-110, and that's because it already becomes complicated to try to be lower than that XD
:(
DAMN YOU CC2! DAMN YOU!
They created that entire PvE part for nothing. Other than a handful story visits to fields and dungeons and maybe 30 minutes to lvl up here and there you aren't even supposed to go fight monsters.
But it's the most fun part of the game and more than half the game mechanics are centered around it.
At least Forest of Pain won't be too easy or? I already got fully alchemized Monarchs and other lvl 130+ equipment, it would be a shame if I couldn't use it without making the game a complete cakewalk.

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