Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post Reply
User avatar
Satoh
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 2:20 pm

Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Ok, this discussion is intended to be about the mysterious elements in the .hack series.

The thread may move on from Helba and Zelkova to someone or something else later, but for now, we will focus on them.


1. Who or what is Zelkova?
Theories:
.a Zelkova is Helba
.b Zelkova is an AI left behind by Helba
.c Zelkova is in no way related to Helba
.d Zelkova is Helba's son or student
.e Zelkova is employed by CC Corp or is otherwise closely affiliated

2. Who or what is Helba?
.a Genius hacker
.b Conglomerate of hackers working on collective projects
.c As was said, it's a stretch, but... Asaba Kaoru
Last edited by Satoh on Tue May 12, 2009 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Kuukai
The Prophet
The Prophet
Posts: 5278
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

2c. Asaba!

I usually hate that kind of theory, but Helba is mysteriously absent around the time of the commotion in that episode iirc, and they share a voice...
User avatar
Satoh
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Kuukai wrote:2c. Asaba!

I usually hate that kind of theory, but Helba is mysteriously absent around the time of the commotion in that episode iirc, and they share a voice...
I actually considered that quite a bit myself... They do act with a similar playful, sarcastic, cynicism... And she was in a convenient place at a convenient time...

If nothing else, even though there's no HARD evidence for it... I'd say she was an agent of Helba at the least... (maybe we should do some investigation into the Minato Mirai incident's timeline as it happens in the game... though I suddenly remember, with chagrin, that mutation is the only IMOQ I don't have >[ blast! I'll have to look up what I can on gamefaqs... that'll be hell...)
User avatar
Kuukai
The Prophet
The Prophet
Posts: 5278
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

I think it's all or nothing. There's no reason to suspect she's an agent of Helba. The entire theory is based on circumstantial evidence (voice, afk-ness), there's no motive for her to be there or any sort of information leak. She's either Helba or she's just a random acquaintance of Yuki's thrown in for entertainment purposes. I really like the idea of Helba having such an unassuming day job, though...
User avatar
Satoh
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Kuukai wrote:I think it's all or nothing. There's no reason to suspect she's an agent of Helba. The entire theory is based on circumstantial evidence (voice, afk-ness), there's no motive for her to be there or any sort of information leak. She's either Helba or she's just a random acquaintance of Yuki's thrown in for entertainment purposes. I really like the idea of Helba having such an unassuming day job, though...
Most hackers do... not many of them take programming jobs because of the strict regulations... It would make sense that Helba is just a random person...
I suppose I should point out even more highly suspect evidence... Asaba Kaoru resembles the Dancing Woman from the SIGN intro... (the one whom transforms into Helba in GIFT for no obvious reason...)

Perhaps it's all coincidence... perhaps it's a joke by the creators to make us paranoid... (which is something I would do if I could) Or perhaps somebody just has an infatuation with mildly-graying brunettes with curly hair...

The entire issue of Helba is highly confusing, no small part in fact, to her own willful ambiguity.

As for Zelkova, I think it's different... He could easily be a part of Helba's consciousness that became stand-alone like some other hacker-turned-AIs we know...

The reason Zelkova strikes me as related to Helba is because they both have extreme hacking talent, both wear a white outfit accented with gold and a few black symbols and lines here or there... And they both have some form of a-typical heagear that sets them apart and possibly above normal people.

Helba had a pope-like hat... Zelkova has horns that are reminiscent of some Japanese nature spirits as well as other types of divine animals...

Though it is known Zelkova had a previous name (Tsukinoki) it is not confirmed as to whether this was another character, or if he simply changed his name.

He is credited with the creation of the Crown of Lu Ming, which I believe is most likely the horns on his head... Characters don't normally 'create' items in The World, so this credit should make it obvious that he's a hacker... So, how did an OBVIOUS hacker get to be such a famous guildmaster without being punished?

Two possibilities I can see, one leads to another theory about him...
A. He's just that good at hacking... (this holds lot of holes...)
B. He's affiliated in some way with CC Corp... (If you remember, Helba had extensive dealings with Lios, and while they didn't get along explicitly, Lios gained a lot of inner respect for Helba, if he still works for CC, he could be overlooking Zelkova because of his connection to Helba.)

Likewise it could also be that Zelkova is quite simply very close to CC, if not directly employed.
User avatar
Kuukai
The Prophet
The Prophet
Posts: 5278
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

Actually Asaba had purple-ish hair...

For Moon Tree, I think it's like TaN. Yata had infiltrated the highest echelons of the organization and could get the admins to look the other way while it was useful to him, since he was probably in a better position to police them anyway. Really, I think it's hard to speculate because Keyaki could be anyone, there's no puzzle piece that fits nicely like with Asaba...

One interesting note is that the voice Pi talks to at the end of Trilogy is the only other .hack voice done by the guy who voices Ichiro Sato (In contrast to Asaba/Helba who share their voice with many characters). It's possible this time he's playing Amagi, but perhaps Helba is still working behind the scenes, and we just have to wait a little bit to see what Keyaki is... Actually, along those lines, with 100 returning characters it's going to be tough for them not to explain it, at least in a fanbook...
User avatar
Satoh
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Kuukai wrote:Actually Asaba had purple-ish hair...

For Moon Tree, I think it's like TaN. Yata had infiltrated the highest echelons of the organization and could get the admins to look the other way while it was useful to him, since he was probably in a better position to police them anyway. Really, I think it's hard to speculate because Keyaki could be anyone, there's no puzzle piece that fits nicely like with Asaba...

One interesting note is that the voice Pi talks to at the end of Trilogy is the only other .hack voice done by the guy who voices Ichiro Sato (In contrast to Asaba/Helba who share their voice with many characters). It's possible this time he's playing Amagi, but perhaps Helba is still working behind the scenes, and we just have to wait a little bit to see what Keyaki is... Actually, along those lines, with 100 returning characters it's going to be tough for them not to explain it, at least in a fanbook...
I vaguely remember one book mentioning the "possibility" that Zelkova 'may not even exist offline'. I believe it was the Perfect Guidebook.
User avatar
Kuukai
The Prophet
The Prophet
Posts: 5278
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

Yeah, it's been suggested. Take it with a grain of salt, though. Analysis left it open that the Subaru, Tsukasa, and Sora bonus characters might be the real ones, iirc...
User avatar
AuraTwilight
IT WAS OVER 9000!
IT WAS OVER 9000!
Posts: 8032
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:03 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

1. Who or what is Zelkova?
Theories:
.a Zelkova is Helba
.b Zelkova is an AI left behind by Helba
.c Zelkova is in no way related to Helba
.d Zelkova is Helba's son or student
.e Zelkova is employed by CC Corp or is otherwise closely affiliated

2. Who or what is Helba?
.a Genius hacker
.b Conglomerate of hackers working on collective projects
.c As was said, it's a stretch, but... Asaba Kaoru
1.b, though not necessarily related to Helba, perhaps just one she chose as an either.

And 2.a. The Asaba Kaoru theory is still ASTOUNDINGLY stupid, to me.
I usually hate that kind of theory, but Helba is mysteriously absent around the time of the commotion in that episode iirc, and they share a voice...
When ISN'T Helba mysteriously absent when she's not around? And I refuse to believe such a notorious, wanted hacker like Helba wouldn't disguise her voice.
She's either Helba or she's just a random acquaintance of Yuki's thrown in for entertainment purposes. I really like the idea of Helba having such an unassuming day job, though...
I'd go for the ladder. Can't .hack have more than one badass?
Most hackers do... not many of them take programming jobs because of the strict regulations... It would make sense that Helba is just a random person...
I suppose I should point out even more highly suspect evidence... Asaba Kaoru resembles the Dancing Woman from the SIGN intro... (the one whom transforms into Helba in GIFT for no obvious reason...)
They don't have the same body frame, hair length or color, or the same skin color. In what way does Asaba resemble the Dancing Woman?
As for Zelkova, I think it's different... He could easily be a part of Helba's consciousness that became stand-alone like some other hacker-turned-AIs we know...
This would be a nice theory if we had any reason to believe Helba's consciousness was in any way fragmented (she seemed to be wise enough not to let the game engulf her mind like her associates), and if Zelkova shared any of Helba's personality traits.
He is credited with the creation of the Crown of Lu Ming, which I believe is most likely the horns on his head... Characters don't normally 'create' items in The World, so this credit should make it obvious that he's a hacker... So, how did an OBVIOUS hacker get to be such a famous guildmaster without being punished?
If he was an AI, it'd pretty much explain everything. He's clearly of a level where CC Corp can't do **** to stop him, and his behavior seems to imply that he treats Za Warudo like it's his actual home, and speaks in the same sort of flowerly, semi-religious manner as other AI's, like Rin and Rumor.
User avatar
Satoh
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Well first and foremost my belief on Zelkova is that he is an AI of some sort.

I should mention that there was a Subaru AI in quarantine, and she was never DDed or any of that sort... also note that there are several AI's supposedly formerly hackers, and I doubt when they were hackers, that they spoke or acted in the same completely insane manner that they do now. (Plaird, Culwhch, etc)

Also the SIGN ''ghosts" which I can't comment too directly on, but their existence is my point in bringing them up. I don't think all of them had a real reason to still be in the game...
User avatar
Kuukai
The Prophet
The Prophet
Posts: 5278
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

AuraTwilight wrote:If he was an AI, it'd pretty much explain everything. He's clearly of a level where CC Corp can't do **** to stop him, and his behavior seems to imply that he treats Za Warudo like it's his actual home, and speaks in the same sort of flowerly, semi-religious manner as other AI's, like Rin and Rumor.
Then again, he could also just be some guy...
AuraTwilight wrote:When ISN'T Helba mysteriously absent when she's not around?
Funny, but not a relevant point...
AuraTwilight wrote:And I refuse to believe such a notorious, wanted hacker like Helba wouldn't disguise her voice.
If she's so good why would she need to hide her digitally transmitted voice? Her enemies don't need to hear it, think GITS. Who says Lios hears it? Who would even assume it's her real voice? Apparently not you...
User avatar
AuraTwilight
IT WAS OVER 9000!
IT WAS OVER 9000!
Posts: 8032
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:03 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

should mention that there was a Subaru AI in quarantine, and she was never DDed or any of that sort... also note that there are several AI's supposedly formerly hackers, and I doubt when they were hackers, that they spoke or acted in the same completely insane manner that they do now. (Plaird, Culwhch, etc)
According to //analysis, the Subaru AI came about because Subaru was holding Aura's hand at the time Net Slum was unplugged. As for the former hackers, they lost the line between the game and reality, and began wandering the net in confusion. Basically, they got too "into" the game and couldn't find their way back. I doubt Helba's quite that foolish. As for speaking and acting in an insane manner, Zelkova is much too lucid for that to be a relevant point. The other former hackers speak the way they do because their minds are totally broken, unlike Zelkova, who passes off as a human with perfect accuracy.
Also the SIGN ''ghosts" which I can't comment too directly on, but their existence is my point in bringing them up. I don't think all of them had a real reason to still be in the game...
the Sign "Ghosts" as in the phantoms you can see in the Cathedral? Za Warudo records and collects people's emotional data, and those scenes have some emotional punch. I speculate that due to Aura's interrupted ascension to power, some data has been misplaced. Whether or not anyone can see this lost emotional data, or whether only Kite can due to his connection to Aura, is unknown. Perhaps his bracelet and his viewing of it even allows him to somehow funnel this data back to Aura, but this is, again, speculation. I'm a strong proponent of my "lost emotional data" theory, though, as it's what I believe to be the main cause of the birth of most of the Vagrant AI's in Za Warudo.
If she's so good why would she need to hide her digitally transmitted voice? Her enemies don't need to hear it, think GITS. Who says Lios hears it? Who would even assume it's her real voice? Apparently not you...
She speaks directly to Lios on numerous occasions. And what if someone she trusted betrayed her? It's certainly the reason why she uses a proxy when dealing with the Liminality group. I don't know, it just seems to lazy and careless to be Helba's style. You'd think she'd have something in place. I mean, if someone met Helba and her RL self, and compared her unedited game voice to her real life voice, she could be in hot water, as unlikely a scenario as that is.
User avatar
Satoh
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

I'll admit that I do find the idea of Asaba being Helba interesting, however it really doesn't hold any water... but neither did I suggest that it did.

I could make the argument that they look similar... but Helba is just a mouth and Asaba is drawn rather than rendered... Also Asaba has a completely different point of view concerning computers from Helba... Asaba seems to find them useful 'only for work and sometimes play'.

It would make for an interesting story, but that's all.
User avatar
Kuukai
The Prophet
The Prophet
Posts: 5278
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

AuraTwilight wrote:According to //analysis, the Subaru AI came about because Subaru was holding Aura's hand at the time Net Slum was unplugged.
Wtf? No it doesn't.
AuraTwilight wrote:She speaks directly to Lios on numerous occasions. And what if someone she trusted betrayed her? It's certainly the reason why she uses a proxy when dealing with the Liminality group. I don't know, it just seems to lazy and careless to be Helba's style. You'd think she'd have something in place. I mean, if someone met Helba and her RL self, and compared her unedited game voice to her real life voice, she could be in hot water, as unlikely a scenario as that is.
Is he hearing what we're hearing? Online, she can control of the flow of information, you can't really compare it to her offline behavior.

How great is knowing a voice anyway? Yata consistently uses one voice across all of his characters, and he's the biggest masquerader of all. Tricks everyone. Even if someone did recognize her, as long as there was no way to record it (and if a n00b like Emma Wielant can do it, Helba can) all you'd have is one dude's testimony that her voice sounded like this other person they know in real life, who as you guys have not hesitated to point out, it so far away from Helba's online person in every respect, he'd be treated as that guy in Chicken Boo cartoons trying to tell everyone Chicken Boo is a giant chicken. Case closed.
Satoh wrote:I'll admit that I do find the idea of Asaba being Helba interesting, however it really doesn't hold any water... but neither did I suggest that it did.
It holds water, it's just nowhere near a sure thing...
Satoh wrote:Asaba seems to find them useful 'only for work and sometimes play'.
But that's exactly what Helba would say...
User avatar
Satoh
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Kuukai wrote:Chicken Boo is a giant chicken. Case closed.
Satoh wrote:I'll admit that I do find the idea of Asaba being Helba interesting, however it really doesn't hold any water... but neither did I suggest that it did.
It holds water, it's just nowhere near a sure thing...
Satoh wrote:Asaba seems to find them useful 'only for work and sometimes play'.
But that's exactly what Helba would say...
Ahhh nostalgia chicken boo was great...

anyway... Now that you mention it, it does seem like the kind of remark Helba would make, but she'd be saying it with more of a sarcastic tone than one meaning 'I really don't care'.

Also Asaba says the comas are merely 'baseless rumors' while she's crawling through the duct-work. It doesn't hold much water...
User avatar
Kuukai
The Prophet
The Prophet
Posts: 5278
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

It was. It's great for analogies, too.

If she was going to say "the comas are real and I know all about them," she might as well just have said "I'm Helba" as it would blow her cover about as much.
User avatar
Satoh
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Satoh »

Kuukai wrote:It was. It's great for analogies, too.

If she was going to say "the comas are real and I know all about them," she might as well just have said "I'm Helba" as it would blow her cover about as much.
I thought of that too... I can see what you're saying, I really can. And I really would like to believe that Asaba could be Helba... Then she'd finally have a real face instead of simply an idea... but I just can't be so sure about it...
User avatar
Kuukai
The Prophet
The Prophet
Posts: 5278
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by Kuukai »

I'm not saying to be sure, I'm not, I'm just saying it's a possibility.
User avatar
_Tri-edge_
Posts: 1768
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:20 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by _Tri-edge_ »

My original theory was this after I finished //Redemption for the first time. Zelkova was Helba's accomplice, and that Helba left NetSlum in his hands of him, which means he was left in charge of the A.I.'s there. Then again, the knowledged I had then wasn't as big as it was today. My second theory was this. CC2 purposely created Zelkova for the G.U. saga as an act of "fanservice" for the original Helba fans. Basically G.U.'s "Helba", or an extremely intelligent hacker with access to illegal material and places in The World, was Zelkova. Of course, Zelkova never actually had a lot of light shined on his "Hacker" side. Just him being the famous Guild leader from Moon Tree. My third and final theory was this, he was just some random dude who had superior hacking abilites and knowledge over The World rivaling Helba's skills. It's just the fact that Zelkova knew so much sh*t, it was scary. Hell, he even knew about "Cubia" when he asked Pi and Haseo about seeing something else inside the outer dungeons, when the Cubia arc was still a far ways off in the game.
User avatar
AuraTwilight
IT WAS OVER 9000!
IT WAS OVER 9000!
Posts: 8032
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:03 pm

Re: Mysteries of characters in .hack: Helba and Zelkova

Post by AuraTwilight »

Wtf? No it doesn't.
Are you sure? I was pretty sure I read that in something official, and I thought it was Analysis.

Ah well, even without that, there's my "Lost emotional data" theory, so whichever works.
Is he hearing what we're hearing? Online, she can control of the flow of information, you can't really compare it to her offline behavior.
No reason to think she'd not have him hear her voice. Occam's Razor.
How great is knowing a voice anyway? Yata consistently uses one voice across all of his characters, and he's the biggest masquerader of all. Tricks everyone. Even if someone did recognize her, as long as there was no way to record it (and if a n00b like Emma Wielant can do it, Helba can) all you'd have is one dude's testimony that her voice sounded like this other person they know in real life, who as you guys have not hesitated to point out, it so far away from Helba's online person in every respect, he'd be treated as that guy in Chicken Boo cartoons trying to tell everyone Chicken Boo is a giant chicken. Case closed.
Still strikes me as iffy, especially since the only evidence the only evidence for the Asaba/Helba theory is the voice. By that logic, Natume is Aura.
Post Reply