Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

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AuraTwilight
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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by AuraTwilight » Thu May 07, 2009 2:11 pm

1.a Characters die normally and are given The World's game over screen, and are then presented with the option to return to their last save point...
1.b Characters in Kite's party are more in the game than normal players, (notice they scream when hit, I attributed this to being able partially feel it, similar to Tsukasa.) This only occurs while they are in Kite's party, as it allows them to fight better. (the grace of the bracelet) However they are protected from data drain at this time as well. (The protection of the bracelet)
They're not feeling anything. All PC's do that, apparently as a matter of roleplaying or game mechanics. But according to Another Birth, Kite and his party members do not feel anything from the game, which wouldn't make sense, since they're not in an altered state of consciousness.
2. The party is defeated by infected enemies, they slip into a coma. The reason they ALL must be defeated is simply because the game is not over for them until they are incapable of being revived. As long as on of them survives, The World still has their data, and their minds, in that field. Once all three (two, or one) are defeated, their data is moved elsewhere, normally, but when the viral enemy kills them, their data cannot be properly moved, and they slip into coma, as their minds cannot exit the field.
There's no inability to leave the field. The person goes comatose because they were "in" the game at the time of defeat. It's basically hypnosis, and then severing the link.
Also note that when Kite has the bracelet forcibly cut off by Blackrose after fighting Cubia, he seems to anticipate a great deal of pain.
Or it's just his PC, like I said before.
I believe the data bug phenomena is similar to the AIDA server incidents. When the virus enters a field, much larger amounts of data begins being drawn from all present players. Thus when a data bug kills a party, they go comatose, because their minds are in the game. There is evidence that Tsukasa was killed by an abnormal monster( either explicit or implicit, I don't remember right off) and that is why he became stuck in the game. It should be noted that in SIGN, the 'virus' hadn't evolved to the point it had in Infection.
It's more implied that Tsukasa was Data Drained by opening a bugged treasure chest or something. Or that Maha did it. Either or.
Helba is for the most part unaffected by the corruption in the game simply because she doesn't directly access it, but rather, she observes the raw data being transmitted through it. (Much like reading the .echo of a game server bot.) Her character is merely superimposed into the scene when she needs them to see her, she is not directly playing it, but rather hacking it to be there. Lios IS playing his character, (albeit with administrative powers) and hence, he is in more danger than Helba.
No way. Not even the game admins can do that, and there's no way Helba can overcome Harald's designs like that, despite her skills. The only way to really modify the game in any meaningful way is to do it from within via an administrative PC. Not to mention that Helba seems to be in as much danger as everyone else. She isn't safe. Either she's playing the game like everyone else, albeit with hacker benefits, or reading the code doesn't protect her, as her mind is still in the game.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Keyaki » Thu May 07, 2009 2:52 pm

The effects of Data Drain are usually controlled by the desires of the user.
Are you saying that since the functionality and power of DD is alter by ones desires,

if Haseo wanted to,for example, back when he was trying to save Atoli in the makeshift AIDA Server Sakaki made with Moon Tree's @Home, when he DD her to get rid of AIDA,, he wanted to he could gotten rid of both Innis and AIDA at the same time, if wanted to ?
He was berserk, but other than that he was functioning normally, no different from Fidchell
seems like an Epitaph-User's emotions could catalyze the awakening of his/her Avatar for the first time and/or trigger an Avatar's summoning, but at the same time could cause them to go out of control, though thats just random observation...

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Satoh » Thu May 07, 2009 3:31 pm

Keyaki wrote:
The effects of Data Drain are usually controlled by the desires of the user.
Are you saying that since the functionality and power of DD is alter by ones desires,

if Haseo wanted to,for example, back when he was trying to save Atoli in the makeshift AIDA Server Sakaki made with Moon Tree's @Home, when he DD her to get rid of AIDA,, he wanted to he could gotten rid of both Innis and AIDA at the same time, if wanted to ?
He was berserk, but other than that he was functioning normally, no different from Fidchell
seems like an Epitaph-User's emotions could catalyze the awakening of his/her Avatar for the first time and/or trigger an Avatar's summoning, but at the same time could cause them to go out of control, though thats just random observation...
I believe Data Drain used by avatars is controlled a lot more fluidly by the person controlling the avatar than by the bracelet. Haseo maneuvers Skeith not with the controller, but via a direct mental interface, or at least that's how I understood the avatar concept... Haseo DD's the data he sees fit to DD, or rather, the data is chosen by his subconscious. So in a sense, yes his desires affect his DD. I think this is also why berserk avatars are never shown explicitly using DD, because they are too frenzied to think about more finesse like DD and would rather just beat things to death. Also the reason Haseo simply collapses when Skeith is defeated is due to the physical and mental exhaustion, rather than Skeith having some sort of set HP limit.

Avatar battles are, in a sense, one person's mind against the other. Rebirth works in a similar fashion I think, which is why Haseo had his psyche shattered. He didn't seem too ill affected by Ovan's participation in the AIDA incident before Rebirth was set off, so why would he be after? It was Rebirth in itself that broke him.

In that thought, let me put forth this: Was Haseo speaking to Skeith, or his own subconscious in the video 'You Are Me' (the White Haseo)...

But back to the Game Over issue, I believe the "Game Over" text is merely something put there to tell you, the player, you failed.

There is likely a 'game over' screen for The World, but I doubt it would look as cyberpunk as the screen in the .hack game.(since The World was a fantasy setting)


Also, while Another Birth is relatively accurate, it is a bit like XXXX, as it is non-canon.

Maha brings up another question... is the Guardian and Maha's powers really "Data Drain" or is it a different effect that has similar purpose and consequences...
more to the point, isn't their attack more of a 'Legacy Data Drain', the predecessor to actual data drain? (Also when I said Tsukasa was killed, I was considering Maha and her DD effect in that statement...)
No way. Not even the game admins can do that, and there's no way Helba can overcome Harald's designs like that, despite her skills. The only way to really modify the game in any meaningful way is to do it from within via an administrative PC. Not to mention that Helba seems to be in as much danger as everyone else. She isn't safe. Either she's playing the game like everyone else, albeit with hacker benefits, or reading the code doesn't protect her, as her mind is still in the game.
Helba created her own gate in SIGN, has a heavily modified PC, made a makeshift server, made a few fields, changed all of her stats, and can warp in and out of any area she wishes to directly... how is that not overriding the system in a significant way? Also Helba can speak to players in fields without being there, as though she were. I don't remember ever seeing Helba seem to be in any danger. In fact she can crash a field simply to log everyone out of it, as she has done a few times. I could however be wrong about her not being in the game directly... She does say, however, "It's nice to play the game normally for a change" once you call her to a field in the after-game. Granted that could mean many things, but I personally think she is logged into the game more in the sense of of an external bot program normally. Either that or, as some have suggested, Helba is a large group of people acting as a unit, so one is playing, while the others are doing various hacking operations... (I don't much care for that idea, as it sort of takes away the amazing part of Helba... rather than one genius hacker, Helba is just a lot of people... and if that were the case, then why would Helba need 'agents')

I could theorize all day on .hack (and have before...). Also my intent isn't to argue with you, I'm only saying why I believe what I do.

I suppose no real conclusions can come until someone discovers exactly HOW Harald managed to drag analogue mind data into a digital environment using nothing more than standard VR headgear and a game controller... Much like the question of how do characters do complex things like dancing or randomly deciding to get into a Spring of Myst nude rather than dropping items into it...(there's no way all of those actions can be done with just a controller... and they'd take too much time to program commands for each one and use keyboard input... We don't even really know how the characters can look in a certain direction or lean on their hands like Blackrose does in one scene... Or for that matter, just about ANYTHING Sora does in SIGN...)

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Keyaki » Thu May 07, 2009 6:51 pm

Also, while Another Birth is relatively accurate, it is a bit like XXXX, as it is non-canon.
What the hell are you talking about? Of course Another Birth is canon
Also Helba can speak to players in fields without being there, as though she were.
Its called alittle something called, PMing
HOW Harald managed to drag analogue mind data into a digital environment using nothing more than standard VR headgear and a game controller... Much like the question of how do characters do complex things like dancing or randomly deciding to get into a Spring of Myst nude rather than dropping items into it...
Harald didn't "drag" any mind data into the game, he is just that much of a genius to be able to program the Harald system into taking the data from every single player in the world at the same time and at the same making it seem like a brain itself, a big computerized super brain with the implication of it maybe having "psychic phenomena"

And The World is just that advanced of an MMORPG to have that many functions and emoticons to do things dancing, etc

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by AuraTwilight » Fri May 08, 2009 1:36 pm

Are you saying that since the functionality and power of DD is alter by ones desires,

if Haseo wanted to,for example, back when he was trying to save Atoli in the makeshift AIDA Server Sakaki made with Moon Tree's @Home, when he DD her to get rid of AIDA,, he wanted to he could gotten rid of both Innis and AIDA at the same time, if wanted to ?
Possibly, though that would require Haseo being overcome Innis', the AIDA's, and Atoli's combined wills, which I don't think he could pull off.
I think this is also why berserk avatars are never shown explicitly using DD, because they are too frenzied to think about more finesse like DD and would rather just beat things to death.
Erm, berserk Avatars DO use Data Drain. Skeith uses it when he defeats Magus.
Also the reason Haseo simply collapses when Skeith is defeated is due to the physical and mental exhaustion, rather than Skeith having some sort of set HP limit.
No, it's because Skeith is Protect Broken, making him helpless against Data Drain.
Avatar battles are, in a sense, one person's mind against the other. Rebirth works in a similar fashion I think, which is why Haseo had his psyche shattered. He didn't seem too ill affected by Ovan's participation in the AIDA incident before Rebirth was set off, so why would he be after? It was Rebirth in itself that broke him.
The hell? If you don't think Haseo was effected before hand, you missed a lot of character development. He was affected, but he was too angry and pissed at Ovan, combined with Sakaki's bull, to give it much thought. After everyone is rescued though, is when he allows himself to feel despair.
In that thought, let me put forth this: Was Haseo speaking to Skeith, or his own subconscious in the video 'You Are Me' (the White Haseo)...
It was both. The Avatars and their Epitaph Users are mentally linked on a deep level.
But back to the Game Over issue, I believe the "Game Over" text is merely something put there to tell you, the player, you failed.

There is likely a 'game over' screen for The World, but I doubt it would look as cyberpunk as the screen in the .hack game.(since The World was a fantasy setting)
Keep in mind this Game Over screen is initiated by an overfilled Virus Meter; it's not a normal Game Over screen other players would ever see.
Also, while Another Birth is relatively accurate, it is a bit like XXXX, as it is non-canon.
No, it's not. Another Birth is 100% canonical.
Maha brings up another question... is the Guardian and Maha's powers really "Data Drain" or is it a different effect that has similar purpose and consequences...
more to the point, isn't their attack more of a 'Legacy Data Drain', the predecessor to actual data drain? (Also when I said Tsukasa was killed, I was considering Maha and her DD effect in that statement...)
It's the exact same Data Drain.
Helba created her own gate in SIGN, has a heavily modified PC, made a makeshift server, made a few fields, changed all of her stats, and can warp in and out of any area she wishes to directly... how is that not overriding the system in a significant way? Also Helba can speak to players in fields without being there, as though she were.
She was logged in when she did just about all of that, and none of which is something a logged-in Administrator can't do.
I don't remember ever seeing Helba seem to be in any danger. In fact she can crash a field simply to log everyone out of it, as she has done a few times. I could however be wrong about her not being in the game directly...
Kite says in the Corbenic fight that if he loses, everyone goes in a coma, and we're shown glimpses of everyone involved in the fight, including Helba.

Besides, if Helba had some special way to avoid entering a coma, she wouldn't keep it to herself. She'd probably share it and find a way to patch it into the game for all players to use, or something.
She does say, however, "It's nice to play the game normally for a change" once you call her to a field in the after-game. Granted that could mean many things, but I personally think she is logged into the game more in the sense of of an external bot program normally. Either that or, as some have suggested, Helba is a large group of people acting as a unit, so one is playing, while the others are doing various hacking operations... (I don't much care for that idea, as it sort of takes away the amazing part of Helba... rather than one genius hacker, Helba is just a lot of people... and if that were the case, then why would Helba need 'agents')
Or, much more simply and obviously, Helba means playing the game as a normal player instead of hacking the hell out of it in order to save both worlds.
I suppose no real conclusions can come until someone discovers exactly HOW Harald managed to drag analogue mind data into a digital environment using nothing more than standard VR headgear and a game controller...
We're told this in Liminality. When someone is really intent and absorbed into the game, you can't say if they're "in" it, or "out" of it. But when you cut the connection between mind and body, the mind is left on the "inside." Basically, magic.
Much like the question of how do characters do complex things like dancing or randomly deciding to get into a Spring of Myst nude rather than dropping items into it...(there's no way all of those actions can be done with just a controller... and they'd take too much time to program commands for each one and use keyboard input... We don't even really know how the characters can look in a certain direction or lean on their hands like Blackrose does in one scene... Or for that matter, just about ANYTHING Sora does in SIGN...)
Emoticons explain most of these, according to Albireo, along with the fact that the animes and game cutscenes extend the drama with actions and displays that can't actually happen and are not taking place within the game, but exist only for the user's benefit of Suspension of Disbelief.

Basically, we see things from Tsukasa's perspective at all times. To normal players like Kite, Blackrose, Haseo, Helba, etc., they're just seeing normal polygon PCs standing there, not doing much of anything unless they type in /clap or /smile or something to that effect. Boring as hell, so it's spiced up. Doesn't mean that's what's actually happening, and according to the characters, it's not.
Last edited by AuraTwilight on Sat May 09, 2009 2:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Satoh » Fri May 08, 2009 4:52 pm

AuraTwilight wrote: Emoticons explain most of these, according to Albireo, along with the fact that the animes and game cutscenes extend the drama with actions and displays that can't actually happen and are not taking place within the game, but exist only for the user's benefit of Suspension of Disbelief.

Basically, we see things from Tsukasa's perspective at all times. To normal players like Kite, Blackrose, Haseo, Helba, etc., they're just seeing normal polygon PCs standing there, not doing much of anything unless they type in /clap or /smile or something to that effect. Boring as hell, so it's spiced up. Doesn't mean that's what's actually happening, and according to the characters, it's not.
Then essentially there's nothing really special about The World as a game at all... They haven't advanced gaming at all in that event, and rather, have regressed, at least according to that. As a program it's amazing, but as a game it's a bit bland following that logic.

As for suspension of disbelief, it would have been better to leave it bland, as that would be more believable.


As for Another Birth, it is only as canon as Trilogy was...

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Keyaki » Fri May 08, 2009 8:45 pm

As for Another Birth, it is only as canon as Trilogy was...
your arrogance knows no bounds

Another Birth is 100 % CANON, and there is nothing you can say that can alter it, just give it up >>

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by _Tri-edge_ » Sat May 09, 2009 8:33 am

Another Birth is just IMOQ but in Blackrose's account. So AB=Canon.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Satoh » Sat May 09, 2009 9:20 am

I would say that there are some distinct holes in the AB story that are different from the original IMOQ games...

But you're right, I have been incredibly arrogant, which was entirely not my intent... For that I apologize, it isn't in any way how I want to introduce myself to a place...

Also it appears that I have no more evidence to back my feelings on the game over issue so I'll say no more on it for now.

Sorry if I annoyed you all.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by AuraTwilight » Sat May 09, 2009 2:25 pm

Then essentially there's nothing really special about The World as a game at all... They haven't advanced gaming at all in that event, and rather, have regressed, at least according to that. As a program it's amazing, but as a game it's a bit bland following that logic.
Well, yea, gaming did regress due to the crap involving Pluto's Kiss. Za Warudo was the only game around for like a year or so, so no one complained.
I would say that there are some distinct holes in the AB story that are different from the original IMOQ games...
Name one.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Satoh » Sat May 09, 2009 3:59 pm

I'm not gonna do it, because 1. I don't want to go look them up, and 2. it doesn't help the forum or the thread for me to continue my argument with you.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by AuraTwilight » Mon May 11, 2009 12:43 pm

Yes, it does. This isn't an argument, it's a discussion. If my tone somehow offends you, I'm sorry, but that's just how I am, I'm not angry with you.

But if you have any reason to believe Another Birth is contradictory enough to be considered non-canonical, it's for the forum's best interests that you share your case. Otherwise it only makes you look like a fool who got into a subject before realizing he didn't have a leg to stand on.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Satoh » Mon May 11, 2009 1:34 pm

After looking back over the discrepancies I previously mentioned, I realized that Roots has even more of them and is part of the canon...

Even if it makes me look like a fool, I retract my previous statement.

(One of them was, however, that Kite was not even present for the fight against the Parasite Dragon.)

However I do hold fast n my belief that a game roughly 10 years advanced from now should be at least on the same level as the games we have now, even if growth was severely stunted by Pluto's Kiss. After all, the rest of computer based technology is even still progressed in the .hack series.

As for The World being "magic"... I can't agree or disagree to that... depending on the definition of magic used, then it could be yes or no...

Back again to the Game Over screen... Due to the fact that Kite is playing the game in a different way than normal players (he has the bracelet, which quite obviously changes the games features) he may not even see the game over screen normal players do at all.

The only time we could assume that Kite would see the normal G/O is during the opening of Infection... which is practically impossible to lose with Orca there.(without cheating) And even so, there wouldn't have been a realistic MMO style G/O programmed, since a normal PS2 gamer wouldn't need to see a "Would you like to respawn?" screen for a single player game... Though it might have been a nice touch.

I assume that Kite falls into a coma if his party dies, and thus G/O is merely there to benefit the PS2 player.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Kuukai » Mon May 11, 2009 5:52 pm

Keyaki wrote:Its called alittle something called, PMing
Well there's flash mail, but I think on at least one occasion Helba seems to have hijacked some sort of admin shout feature...

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Satoh » Mon May 11, 2009 6:02 pm

Kuukai wrote:
Keyaki wrote:Its called alittle something called, PMing
Well there's flash mail, but I think on at least one occasion Helba seems to have hijacked some sort of admin shout feature...
That was closer to what I was thinking... Flashmail is nonvocal, but Helba is quite clearly vocal in most scenes.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by AuraTwilight » Tue May 12, 2009 2:08 pm

After looking back over the discrepancies I previously mentioned, I realized that Roots has even more of them and is part of the canon...
Roots doesn't have any actual discrepancies.
(One of them was, however, that Kite was not even present for the fight against the Parasite Dragon.)
Kite's fighting the Parasite Dragon was an optional sidequest in the games. Therefore, if Another Birth, which is equally canonical, says he wasn't there, than canonically, Kite was not there.
However I do hold fast n my belief that a game roughly 10 years advanced from now should be at least on the same level as the games we have now, even if growth was severely stunted by Pluto's Kiss. After all, the rest of computer based technology is even still progressed in the .hack series.
Who says it hasn't? Either way, 10 years isn't going to get you the level of sophistication the anime presents us with the Tsukasa perspective, unless we hit some sort of Technological Singularity.
As for The World being "magic"... I can't agree or disagree to that... depending on the definition of magic used, then it could be yes or no...
I mean "magic" as in "The Harald System is built upon psychic phenomena that blatantly disregard the laws of the real world and allow stuff to happen which isn't physically possible whatsoever."
Back again to the Game Over screen... Due to the fact that Kite is playing the game in a different way than normal players (he has the bracelet, which quite obviously changes the games features) he may not even see the game over screen normal players do at all.
Possible. But it's just as equally possible that he's seeing the same Game Over screen other people do, but for a reason no one else experiences.
I assume that Kite falls into a coma if his party dies, and thus G/O is merely there to benefit the PS2 player.
If his party just dies, they probably get to restart normally unless they're so "Into" the game that their emotional and mental connection to the real world is forgotten. Though the Virus Meter overloading probably does knock Kite off his ass and into a coma.

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Kuukai » Tue May 12, 2009 2:32 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:Roots doesn't have any actual discrepancies.
Yeah! Saburo was hiding under a HUUUUUUUUUUGE chair!

Honestly there were, but the more hard-hitting ones escape me at this time...

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Satoh » Tue May 12, 2009 2:51 pm

Blackrose was present in some scenes of Another Birth where she wasn't in the games. (Meeting Linda in Mutation)

I swear... I hate TV... it ruins my memory... I had some more things to point out but I've forgotten... watch me remember in 14 hours in the middle of the night and be too tired to edit my post... oh well...

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Kuukai » Tue May 12, 2009 2:58 pm

You couldn't take her? I forget...

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Re: Question about "Game Over" screen (story-related)

Post by Satoh » Tue May 12, 2009 3:04 pm

Kuukai wrote:You couldn't take her? I forget...
I believe in the game Kite was asked to come alone.

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