Discussion on the mechanics as explored in the lore

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k-su
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Discussion on the mechanics as explored in the lore

Post by k-su » Thu May 16, 2019 9:37 pm

After rewatching KonoSuba and being reminded about .hack/SAO death battle scenarios again, I began to wonder about how these game breaking mechanics would work outside the original setting, which led to me wondering about them within the lore. So I decided I'd ask my fellow compatriots for their thoughts. If anyone has their own discussion points, feel free to share as well.

Sorry for the rambling wall of text to follow, but had to get all this off my chest.

First thing to come to mind was that there seemed to be differences between the protection of Kite's bracelet and the epitaphs. Something that was explicitly said in IMOQ was that with the bracelet, Kite's PC data is protected from tampering or even deletion within the game. We see this also via the admin's failed attempts to dupe Kite with new installation books.

Phases seem to one shot anything without protection. Silver Knight, Sora and Orca are all incapacitated to varying levels by DD. Even without DD, we see characters get one shot throughout the series. Only characters with a certain level of protection can withstand those attacks.

Kite and his party are able to take data drains to the face and keep going, whereas even Aura was dissected by Skeith's data drain. The only time Kite's party is completely vulnerable to a phase is after Kite loses the bracelet.

On the other hand, we have Haseo and the other avatar-users, who seemed to have a similar protection. However, Haseo's data was tampered with on multiple occasions (not going to count Harold because he's Harold).

Azure Kite's data drain: I wondered if either Skeith wasn't around when Haseo was DD'd or if it was, could dormancy have left Haseo's PC data vulnerable to corruption? He wasn't outright derezzed, but his character was completely reformatted.

After awakening, Haseo is able to survive attacks and DDs during avatar segments in one piece and only after taking the re-initialization of the internet to the face did his data get wrecked again.

Zelkova: After that incident, he was subject to tampering in order to rebuild him and unlock new job extensions. Zelkova is a different entity from normal admins, so I wonder about it.

Kite's party is protected, but are able to break down the phases' data and destroy them. However, Kite's party is never shown being protect broken, which was the difference between them and the phases when they battled.

The reverse happens to Azure Kite, despite being modeled after the original Kite's data. He's imperfect, but could Aura not have given him the same protections the original bracelet had? Could it be the same, but those old protections just aren't as effective during the R:2 era? Was Kite's bracelet more powerful than that of the phases back in R:1?

I also wonder about the way the phases move between fields. They have bracelet similar enough to Kite's and shares its core abilities. However, the phases can get around a lot more effortlessly compared to Kite gate-hacking ability. Are they the same, but the phases are just more adept? Is it a separate ability innate to the phases? Could Kite learn to move between fields like the phases? Could you go to an area and find Skeith farming for virus cores?

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Re: Discussion on the mechanics as explored in the lore

Post by (Phantom) Thief » Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 pm

I think outside of their original stories, the phases probably couldn't one shot characters form another universe. But I don't see them as requiring protection break to effect someone. Inside the universe of SAO I could see Kite's data as something Kirito wouldn't have control over given that its from an alien system. Data Drain itself however would probably work all across the board, just in varying levels. For example in Quantum Data Drain didn't work because of the something about virus, and in G.U. & Link it functions more like an attack, resistible with an epitaph and more of attack in Kite's Xth Form Cross Rengeki. But in Versus we get Chim Chims?

k-su wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:37 pm
I also wonder about the way the phases move between fields. They have bracelet similar enough to Kite's and shares its core abilities. However, the phases can get around a lot more effortlessly compared to Kite gate-hacking ability. Are they the same, but the phases are just more adept? Is it a separate ability innate to the phases? Could Kite learn to move between fields like the phases? Could you go to an area and find Skeith farming for virus cores?
On this last one. I believe its just that the phases are similar to Tsukasa in that they don't require virus cores to travel to a forbidden area, and are unique enough on their own that they can navigate the system better than any player could because they are deeply part of the system itself. The same can also be said of Sora (ZERO) who is also some sort of fusion between the original's emotional data and Skeith. (Side note: Haseo also being able to travel freely the world in other media is a thing.) However In the same way Tri Edge (Azure Flame Knight: Kite) can jump to whatever area he wants, because he can sense something in the system. I think with the right amount of focus Kite, who has a slight connection to the system at times could also do the same. In the same way we see him summoning the bracelet at the start of XXXX and Data Draining an entire field in Legacy his abilities are definitely improving. Which version of the World they are in matters as well. By Re: Vice age players being able to modify the core of the game through their consciousness is just part of the official plot.
k-su wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:37 pm
The reverse happens to Azure Kite, despite being modeled after the original Kite's data. He's imperfect, but could Aura not have given him the same protections the original bracelet had? Could it be the same, but those old protections just aren't as effective during the R:2 era? Was Kite's bracelet more powerful than that of the phases back in R:1?
I blame the gimped up steam gunner. But notice that no one else in R:2 or R:X or anywhere who was normal had much a shot at taking Tri Edge (Azure Flame Knight/Kite) down, Phyllo as a Normal Player was able to fight him but was out of his league, Midori as AIDA struggled, Haseo & the crew At Hulle Granz Cathedral couldn't finish him off the second time around, Three Epitaph Users had to jump him in AIDA's Locker Room, Even during Link Fluegel who is effectively a time wizard struggled (to be fair though it was 3 v 1), Haseo & Mr. Doubleware Tokio IN the Akashic Records, Kite (Twilight Knight) & Tokio outside of it, then in Armed Conflict you had another jumping plus a system AI to help, and in Re: Vice World The Protagonist had Gaze of Daze, Kite (New World), Three More Players, Plus Kirito and Asuna. Meanwhile Kite & Haseo both modified had to jump him in Project X Zone 2. About the only one who got it easy was Gaspard. Outside of the main series though, yes, you could probably take him down.


k-su wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:37 pm
Azure Kite's data drain: I wondered if either Skeith wasn't around when Haseo was DD'd or if it was, could dormancy have left Haseo's PC data vulnerable to corruption? He wasn't outright derezzed, but his character was completely reformatted.

whooooooo booy. Does .hack have an update for you!!!

Two stories were released: Duplicate Phenomenon Extracts of The Epitaph User's Investigation. which explains Skeith (White) & Journal iof The Dark and The Wicked which explains Haseo's thought of an unknown presence within him sometime after his fight with tri edge and another time i think after he gets his third form and see what happened when ppairing that with some information from roots and guide book for some fun

https://falions.net/works/yata.html

So here's the short complicated deal with Haseo. By the time he starts R:2 he has one part of Skeith which attaches too him (Skeith: Epitaph) which it recognizes as part of itself, another part of which Tri Edge (Azure Flame Kite) returns to him (White: Sora-Skeith) during the data drain. (Technically Haseo has like 10 more parts of Skeith in him after those but let's not get into it too much..., If we count PXZ2 as canon he has Skeith-Zero, then if we count the avatars who were also Skeith at one point in the timeline he has a fragment of those form the avatar's he data drained for the epitaph users so 8 more, then the fact that one of the Skeith zero in pxz fused with another Skeith. At this point Rypu Misaki is more Skeith than Sora and more Sora than Haseo. May whoever help us if .hack ever gets into real time travel and he starts fusing with himself there, which is probably possible for the series at this point, given that we got people turning into photons)

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Re: Discussion on the mechanics as explored in the lore

Post by k-su » Sat May 18, 2019 7:00 pm

(Phantom) Thief wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 pm
On this last one. I believe its just that the phases are similar to Tsukasa in that they don't require virus cores to travel to a forbidden area, and are unique enough on their own that they can navigate the system better than any player could because they are deeply part of the system itself. The same can also be said of Sora (ZERO) who is also some sort of fusion between the original's emotional data and Skeith. (Side note: Haseo also being able to travel freely the world in other media is a thing.) However In the same way Tri Edge (Azure Flame Knight: Kite) can jump to whatever area he wants, because he can sense something in the system. I think with the right amount of focus Kite, who has a slight connection to the system at times could also do the same. In the same way we see him summoning the bracelets in XXXX and Data Draining an entire field in Legacy his abilities are definitely improving.
I thought that might be the case. I'd actually forgotten to take Tsukasa's and Azure Kite's traversals into account.
(Phantom) Thief wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 pm
Which version of the World they are in matters as well. By Re: Vice age players being able to modify the core of the game through their consciousness is just part of the official plot.
Not familiar with Re: Vice. Was that connected to one of the mobile games? I hadn't followed them much due to language barrier, so I knew only bits an pieces of lore.
(Phantom) Thief wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 pm
... then in Armed Conflict you had another jumping plus a system AI to help, and in Re: Vice World The Protagonist had Gaze of Daze, Kite (New World), Three More Players, Plus Kirito and Asuna. Meanwhile Kite & Haseo both modified had to jump him in Project X Zone 2. About the only one who got it easy was Gaspard. Outside of the main series though, yes, you could probably take him down.
Okay, I've clearly fallen behind in my knowledge of the series. Also, what happened with Gaspard? Did he beat him in a card game? It'd be funny to see the (former) champ make him rage quit at Crimson VS.
(Phantom) Thief wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 pm
whooooooo booy. Does .hack have an update for you!!!

https://falions.net/works/yata.html

So here's the short complicated deal with Haseo. By the time he starts R:2 he has one part of Skeith which attaches too him (Skeith: Epitaph) which it recognizes as part of itself, another part of which Tri Edge (Azure Flame Kite) returns to him (White: Sora-Skeith) during the data drain. (Technically Haseo has like 10 more parts of Skeith in him after those but let's not get into it too much..., If we count PXZ2 as canon he has Skeith-Zero, then if we count the avatars who were also Skeith at one point in the timeline he has a fragment of those form the avatar's he data drained for the epitaph users so 8 more, then the fact that one of the skeith zero in pxz fused with another skeith. At this point Rypu Misaki is more Skeith than Sora and more Sora than Haseo)
A lot of new content must have come out during my hiatus. This was an interesting read. However, it makes it sound as though Sora was the first victim of data drain. It says first observed, but unless the Guardian's ability wasn't observed and recorded, wouldn't that mean it wasn't using data drain? Maybe an imperfect or alternate version? Sora's data drain scene was more similar to Orca's than any the Guardian performed and only happened at the hands of a phase.

If I recall from IMOQ, the Guardian and Temptress Lover didn't have data drain as an ability in battle. Not sure I'd call it an indication, since it could have been left out for gameplay reasons and this is coming out years down the line. Having eventually normal enemies roaming dungeons with data drain would be quite daunting.

This also gives new context to Azure Kite and Haseo's first bout. Was this also a part of Ovan's plan or just semi-coincidence? Kite never pursued Haseo up to that point, so until they were set in each other's path, Skeith's data couldn't be returned to Haseo.

Another thing I'm curious about is how Avatar Awakening: Data Drain works. He'd evolved to a level where he could do it, but I wonder why it's accessed as an awakening move? Learning to accept and rely on his allies was a part of his character arc and the Awakening mechanic was a good way of showcasing his working together with his teammates. Did he need the extra power from his party to perform Data Drain without Skeith, perhaps?

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Re: Discussion on the mechanics as explored in the lore

Post by (Phantom) Thief » Sun May 19, 2019 11:02 pm

k-su wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:00 pm
I thought that might be the case. I'd actually forgotten to take Tsukasa's and Azure Kite's traversals into account

Not familiar with Re: Vice. Was that connected to one of the mobile games? I hadn't followed them much due to language barrier, so I knew only bits an pieces of lore.
.
Re:Vice Age is the setting of The World for .hack//new world. By 2035, and also near the back end of 2030 the issues around the game have evolved to the point where a person consciousnes able to subtly manipulate the game resulting in abnormal events such a modifications to the users character data, unexpected gains in strength, changes in weapon, unusualky strong enemy and the generation of wandering AI effected the memories and consciousness of several users of the game as whole as well as an mmorpg that starting to activatly create its own wandering ai and security system. Not only that but its not just the game itself either but on there dangerous end subconscious manipulation of each other as well. (In fact I'm pretty sure the end of Guilty Dragon is the whole reason Re:Vice Age exists but don't quote me on that just yet.) However in short, things got real.
k-su wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:00 pm

Okay, I've clearly fallen behind in my knowledge of the series. Also, what happened with Gaspard? Did he beat him in a card game? It'd be funny to see the (former) champ make him rage quit at Crimson VS.
Well most of it, from the mobile games anyway so I wouldn't worry about it too much. However about the Gaspard thing, I'm just making' a reference to a continuing joke featured from Gaspard's Go Go World. There Gaspard runs into Tri Edge in a field while Silabus is away but Tti Edge decides not to do whatever he had planned to after finally seeing Gaspard face which somehow consideres kawaii to attack. That said though Tri Edge was also featured in separate mobile game outside of the .hack series before as part of a collaboration between
hack//new world & sword art online code register so there's a few references there to consider. Since roughly the same characters in different mobile games/(universes?). Also I made a typo however it should be Gaze of Domination. I think daze was from an early promotional article.

k-su wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:00 pm

A lot of new content must have come out during my hiatus. This was an interesting read. However, it makes it sound as though Sora was the first victim of data drain. It says first observed, but unless the Guardian's ability wasn't observed and recorded, wouldn't that mean it wasn't using data drain? Maybe an imperfect or alternate version? Sora's data drain scene was more similar to Orca's than any the Guardian performed and only happened at the hands of a phase.

If I recall from IMOQ, the Guardian and Temptress Lover didn't have data drain as an ability in battle. Not sure I'd call it an indication, since it could have been left out for gameplay reasons and this is coming out years down the line. Having eventually normal enemies roaming dungeons with data drain would be quite daunting.

This also gives new context to Azure Kite and Haseo's first bout. Was this also a part of Ovan's plan or just semi-coincidence? Kite never pursued Haseo up to that point, so until they were set in each other's path, Skeith's data couldn't be returned to Haseo.

Another thing I'm curious about is how Avatar Awakening: Data Drain works. He'd evolved to a level where he could do it, but I wonder why it's accessed as an awakening move? Learning to accept and rely on his allies was a part of his character arc and the Awakening mechanic was a good way of showcasing his working together with his teammates. Did he need the extra power from his party to perform Data Drain without Skeith, perhaps?
Yeah it all kept coming. I didn't post everything, however, there's a second novel called "The Journal of The Dark and the Wicked" which deals with Haseo dreams and his notice of a secret second presence lingering inside him. Then if you combine it with some of the info from earlier G.U. media there are multiple pieces of that end up with Haseo. According to how Ovan first noticed Haseo had entered the game in First Login I think it was coincidence. It gets a little much to keep up with without it all laid out in front of someone. Gotta look at some stuff again sometime.

Anyway about the avatar if I remember i think it was a function Zelkova added, and because of that I do think he needs them to use it at least in R:2 at least in his base. Also to be fair there's a lot of weird stuff happening while Haseo uses it.

https://youtu.be/TQBz6wmcKPg

On the high end though Shamrock (Pi) & Kite Xth have both used similar versions of data drain like from their base.
In the end with work I think Shamrock is probably the some of best of what Haseo can end up with.

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Re: Discussion on the mechanics as explored in the lore

Post by k-su » Tue May 21, 2019 8:06 pm

(Phantom) Thief wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:02 pm
Re:Vice Age is the setting of The World for .hack//new world. By 2035, and also near the back end of 2030 the issues around the game have evolved to the point where a person consciousnes able to subtly manipulate the game resulting in abnormal events such a modifications to the users character data, unexpected gains in strength, changes in weapon, unusualky strong enemy and the generation of wandering AI effected the memories and consciousness of several users of the game as whole as well as an mmorpg that starting to activatly create its own wandering ai and security system. Not only that but its not just the game itself either but on there dangerous end subconscious manipulation of each other as well. (In fact I'm pretty sure the end of Guilty Dragon is the whole reason Re:Vice Age exists but don't quote me on that just yet.) However in short, things got real.
Sounds like it. Wait, what's the tech like at that point, with all of this going on?

Also, is Thanatos Report followed up on or is it ignored in favor of soft-rebooting the franchise? I feel like with it being the last major plot point in the series proper, they would sidestep it for mobile games. However, I remember hearing New World being pushed as something a lot bigger than it ending up getting a chance to be. I'm really curious to see what they decide to do. With the Piros tease in vol 4, they could rebuild season 3 and either continue, disregard it for this new material or integrate them into the greater story. Last Recode really is an interesting point for the series to have been brought back with.
(Phantom) Thief wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:02 pm
That said though Tri Edge was also featured in separate mobile game outside of the .hack series before as part of a collaboration between
hack//new world & sword art online code register so there's a few references there to consider. Since roughly the same characters in different mobile games/(universes?). Also I made a typo however it should be Gaze of Domination. I think daze was from an early promotional article.
Since AIDA was able to make its way around the web and Aura's rebirth brought the internet into its golden age, I suppose his appearances in other games could be unofficially semi-canon to other series. Even Zelkova said he'd survive after The World disappears in Vol 4.
(Phantom) Thief wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:02 pm
Yeah it all kept coming. I didn't post everything, however, there's a second novel called "The Journal of The Dark and the Wicked" which deals with Haseo dreams and his notice of a secret second presence lingering inside him. Then if you combine it with some of the info from earlier G.U. media there are multiple pieces of that end up with Haseo. According to how Ovan first noticed Haseo had entered the game in First Login I think it was coincidence. It gets a little much to keep up with without it all laid out in front of someone. Gotta look at some stuff again sometime.
I love how immersive the material in this series about people being immersed in a game can be. Really makes me appreciate all the thought and effort that goes into .hack.

Something I started thinking about was the reason for the short suspension of PKing during IMOQ? I feel like this might have been addressed but I can't remember. I figure they wanted the main conflict to stay as man vs his environment and player conflict didn't really have a place in the story they were telling past Marco's aggressiveness with people.

Edit:
Just watched the scene when Kite first uses the bracelet again. What did Balmung think he was doing trying to challenge Kite in the cathedral when PKing has been removed from the game? I guess he lost himself in the heat of the moment. Gives me a bit more of a chuckle when I think about it now.

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