.hack MAD - Aimed at developers.

[Takai Tenshi]

well...

i like both ideas, but as much of a hassle coldbird's may or may not be, i have a FEELING that it may work a bit better, using all of the pre-made textures already done for you by CC.

as to your idea of allowing hackers, maybe you should think of an event-type thing so that only certain people can do it. maybe have your beta testers be able to utilize the holes and then let them keep the power or something like that.

if, however you go with that idea, i would like to be a beta tester, as it was mine.

[Coma]

Well, art is really going to be the last problem for a new MMO game. The technical architecture behind a MMO is huge and incredibly difficult. Thankfully there are solutions like Project Darkstar that make it easier, but when taking on such a large undertaking, most people would think you might as well do it all properly. Besides, the low resolution PS2 textures are going to look really bad in a modern game, on a high res monitor.

[Takai Tenshi]

well either way,

I think that you(both of you) should incorperate what fragment had, an area builder.
i think it'd be fun.

[Coldbird]

Just to tip you off on various things...
The textures in .hack GU 1-3 werent THAT low-resolution, they were 512x512pixel, fully utilizing the PS2's framebuffer width.

The first gen .hack textures were 256x256 pixel, filled to be 512x512 pixel to fill the framebuffer, so you are PARTIALLY right.

As nice as a "new" MMORPG sounds, I've tried that before and it really isn't a too authentic way of going for a true .hack feeling, unless you REALLY DO IT RIGHT!

*cough* a good example how to not do it - cyberconnects *cough cough*

Finally the whole christmas stuff is over and I get to work a bit on this again... thank goodness. Good luck on your attempt too though.

About the fragment area server stuff for mapping, this isn't in my control... sadly. I'm only going to provide the MAD. What happens afterwards is up to the person that utilizes my MAD for game development.

Also, I put my homepage back up. http://coldbird.celes-network.de and mirrored my old patch for .hack fragment because several people were requesting it.

[Coma]

That's low resolution by my standards. Welcome to the PC, where texture resolution scales!

Rest assured, I've seen enough examples of how NOT to do it

Well, having the resources doesn't make it a good .hack MMO immediately. There are a bunch of requirements that have to be satisfied before it simply becomes a "good MMO", and none of the attempts thus far had that. Then, they have to integrate all the things that make .hack special - the anomalies that happen throughout the games. If those are not possible to some extent without making everyone SUPERDATADRAINHACKERSAZUREFLAMEGOD, then it's not a good .hack game. In your case, it will have to be a new .hack MMO anyway, despite the art. It's the gameplay and technological part that it depends on.

A .hack feeling I think can be satisfied by simply providing all the tools, and getting a significant enough player base. The players will do the rest (with a little help from "mysterious" system events).

In short, none of it depends on the art :E Art in a project like this is... well... rather insignificant, because it's not the real problem. Getting everything else right is the problem. Once you get to a point where you have something promising to show -- finding good artists is not difficult.

And then you say you're going to leave everything except art to other people, so how is that different from a "new" MMORPG?

If you like, maybe we can work together on the MMO project. Right now I'm still getting to know all the tools, but soon enough I'll work towards real development. The goal to have before looking for more staff is movement and chat in a root town -- that is, a finished abstraction of the graphics, sound, controls and network modules. I thought of maybe including combat or something in the demo, but I decided to leave gameplay decisions for later. So that means combat, and maybe even the presence of an OS screen, will be left for later when I have people to discuss it with.

[Coldbird]

I'd prefer seeing some backup to your claims before I decide whether to team up or not.
Also if you are serious about this please move it to PMs.

[Coma]

What claims? They were all goals and concepts.

So far, I've progressed to the point of porting the OGRE3D Player Demo v2 to use Project Darkstar for the server backend. I might have mentioned it already, but Project Darkstar is a server framework with focus on MMO games. It's designed to save a lot of time and solve a lot of issues you'll encounter on the way to making a MMO. It's a bit like licensing a game engine, like Unreal Engine (but the UDK wasn't fit for my purposes -- you don't get access to the source code and the scripted TcpLink abstraction is very slow, so you can't write your own netcode).

For now, I've put this project on second priority and joined another project based on OGRE3D to get more experience with it. It's a point-and-click adventure game, so it should be done relatively quickly, and I'll have tons more experience and knowledge when it is. I still make progress on the .hack MMO, but only things which are useful for both games.

I personally don't think you should bother with fragment, because of how much of a hassle it is to play that game and the limitations of the server software. In all this time, had you worked seriously like you do on reverse engineering fragment, you would've had an alpha version of a MMO based on OGRE3D and Darkstar right now. So not only would it be more advanced, the game could be played by anyone with no legal concerns.

MMOs are kept alive by the social aspect. fragment has a really bad framework for that: small servers, and steep and frustrating requirements for joining a game.

[Erich]

Well, i'll be damned, this is going somewhere. As I have you on MSN too, I could say this to you in general, but I think it's best for me to post here. And before I go on... you truly might be the Harald Hoerwick of this world. Of course you didn't do anything with HMDs and the ultimate AI, but you might be the man responsible for bringing a good MMO into light.

Anywho, lets get down to business. What are we talking here? Are we talking about basing something off of fragment, G.U., and Infection-Quarantine, or making something truly its own? (By 'truly its own', I mean, are we going to write a new system and use skins from whatever game.) Also, what revision of "The World" would be basing it off of? R:1 or R:2?

And to what extent of knowledge is needed? I myself am interested, and coding and all that good stuff is my interest in profession, so i'm willing to learn if I can help. I can offer my potential knowledge of japanese as I learn it in the next few years, too. Also, I am friends over the net with a guy that knows one or two moderators on some of the bigger playstation hacking and emulation websites. He also has some knowledge and was interested in your project, too, so I might be able to bring him on board. Are there any smaller positions I can fill until I am of use? I'm willing to dedicate some chunks of my personal time in the next few years. (actually, a lot of years, hell, i'm only 13 [although turning 14 in a month]. This is within my wanted profession, and i'm also going to a technical high school for I.T. next year [which is the vauge category they gave us for anything computer related we might want to do further on].) I want to be a part of this, and member, and even if I can't help it grow, I want to watch it grow in the years to come. Even if this doesn't go particularly far, if we can get enough of their attention and show our determination, even if they shut us down, we might be able to get them to get another go at a MMO. (Even if that means they outsource it to Korea, it doesn't matter who makes it, as long as they get money for the .hack name and that they don't ruin it.)

Okay, sorry for the wall of text. I tried getting it in the best order I could.

Anyways... we need some legal advisers too. Not professionals, but someone to help guide us how far we can go. We're walking on a minefield. But coldbird, I can always send any japanese needed to be translated to some of my friends in the english community we have in the japanese MMO I play. There are quite some avid native english-speakers there that can translate it, we're usually bored anyways.

Saluting your efforts, Erich~.

[K3nt0]

I will support this project as well.

Erich, I praise your spirit. This project would run for very long and you can make a lot of experience. If you truly work hard on this your skills will be out standing in your age class. You should see coldbird as an idol. He was not much older than you when he finished his own server of shining lore.

As coma told me his next main goal is to create a tech demo. It is true that without proofs of our work every one would laugh at us. So long he wants to keep his project more or less a secret. Best thing you could do is learn more about the engine Coma is using.

I trust Coldbird and ripping of the graphics should be no problem for his clan. So lets concentrate on the engine.

Things that are also needed:

- youtube promotion videos
- a list of boards/forums of japanese/ps2/emu/game hacking/mmorpgs/computer science topics that might want to cooperate.
- a project website
- project faq

Note: never post links to other websites in this topic. It is against the rules of this bbs. Also let Coma know what steps you do.

I would also like to get your mail addys.

What about the former fan game attempts? Would those developers like to join?

[Erroneous]

I trust Coldbird and ripping of the graphics should be no problem for his clan. So lets concentrate on the engine.

With hackstract and/or hacpics anyone and their grand-mother can extract the images and textures from the data.bin and data.cvm files from all 7 games. Being in possession of the programs themselves may not be illegal, but the act of using and distributing the files obtained (moreso making a sale or claiming ownership) through the use of programs like this would be. However to prevent any gray margin's with the message board rules, I won't divulge anyone with the links and only say to use those names as a start on Google.

[K3nt0]

Even though hackpics is only for pictures its source code might become helpful.

To the developers here: Let us create a .hack// developer guild which unites all of our skills to create something that is greater than all of us. Maybe we even find the Key of the Twilight in our work someday for ourselves. Only if we believe in such the spirit of .hack// can live on, even if the last .hack// era starts soon. Because of that I suggest the name Twilight Keepers. We are keeping the spirit alive. I join this guild now. Which makes already one. If five people follow me than five people we follow each of you as well. Soon we are enough people to write our own .hack// era.

So join.

By the way I might found a very skilled hacker.

[Erich]

We need a plan; even if we aren't anywhere near using it. We need to first figure what revision of "The World" we want to make. After that, we have to plan and figure out how ever aspect can work; intricately preferred. We have a while to construct this plan; it can just be ideas of what is possible and what isn't, and slowly work down to a more technical schematic as we advance.

[K3nt0]

Yes, we need a plan. I am working on one. But you would be also a great help. Write down all your ideas. We will combine ours then.

I suggest those stepts:

- create the tech demo
- recruit developers
- write a project faq
- get us a project website
- create a very simple 1.0 of the game that only got a simple Mac Anu Map, a chat and character creating. No need for battle system, etc so early. Because once we got some work online we will get a lot of attention. And this means a lot of developers would find to us. And finally this means faster and better progress.

As I mentioned I was working on a similar project. A MMORPG maker. But Coma convinced me to use his later game data as a kind of framework. However I wrote a project description that is not so much different from the one we need now. I copy it and will later write a new one for Coldbirds/Comas project. Feel free to give advices.

Campaign 1.0

Did you ever dreamed to make your own 3D MMORPG? About your favourite anime/manga, offline game or just according to your own concept? If yes then you know it is very hard to create a good engine and nearly impossible to do this as a simple side project.

Because of that many interested people came up with the idea to create one universal MMORPG engine which is

- free ware
- open source
- is extensible through plug-ins
- easy to use
- can legally import any game media from any 3D game that has been sold
- offers a free game media database with sounds and graphics

As open source project people from all over the world can develop together which will make the engine one day one of the best or even the best. History showed that open source projects are much more competent than closed source. If you look at the Linux community, which is the biggest open source project on earth, the term "open source" stands for high quality and quantity. The goal is to reach similar values with the open source MMORPG Maker.

With a free ware open source engine you also can finally start your true project and concentrate on the actual game concept and do not have to spend month or years into developing. Make your digital dream come true in the moment you experience them.

It is a shame that many MMORPG developer all create their own engine. Imagine how many hundreds or thousands of people invest millions of hours into creating the same basics over and over again. Time is money which could also be invested into better game play. With this project we hopefully make an end to this nonsense and let the developer start where others stopped! Only that way we make sure that the MMORPG scene progresses and people can experience new generations of game play.

With the aid of plug ins or mods it will be possible to customize your MMORPG within seconds. Mods can contain game play data like battle systems, economy, controlling and other features. You can easily copy the game play of other games, create a complete new one and share it with others or create new interesting versions of other mods.

Through importing other game media from the original games it will be possible to create any MMORPG you ever dreamed about. You can create MMORPGs of some of the most successful media like Naruto, .hack//, Final Fantasy 7-13 and many more. You just have to own released games of them to import their game media into your own MMORPG. Side projects will start and work together and can support each others.

Easy usage is one of the basic features of this project and does not mean that it could not reach the qualities of an expensive professional engine. Remember the success of ASCII Art's RPG Maker many years ago. Our goal is to create the next generation of RPG Makers with online capability and that even surpasses the former success.

Of course you also can create your own models, maps and sounds for endless possibilities. Share them with others and help to create an endless database of free game media or just use it for your own game to make it outstanding.

Currently the project is in planning phase. The next steps are:

1. create a website with a discussion board
2. write a basic concept of the project

Got interested? Then post. So we can contact you.

Btw I like the graphics of the PS2 and do not mind that they are old. .hack// is old and that is why I like the retro look. I would make the project R:2. We also could combine all versions. Since //LINK will presumably contain the same data format like its prequels using its data would be no problem. The problem about the mix of R:1 and 2 will be the resolution difference. It would not look like one game. We might could use the bad resolution of R:1 with R:2 media to sync it but graphics would lose qualitiy. But we have to see this for real to decide I think. There is also the question if we even want to make a [The World] R:crossover (now that I mention this word, the X in R:X might stand for crossover). It could destroy the atmosphere.

[Coma]

I don't think we should assume Coldbird has any interest whatsoever in making a new MMO - including him without asking is just rude, considering he started the fragment thread after what I said in this one. If he wants to resurrect fragment, then he probably doesn't share the ideas (and ideals) that bring people to want to create a MMO from scratch.

Anyway, once my tech demo is complete, if you're interested -- K3nt0, you can contact me about helping further down the line, like I planned to do for everyone else. Then, on the premise that you're a worker and not a dreamer (some people spend all their time fantasizing about what could be, instead of making it happen), and have the necessary skills, we can work together.

For reference, the tech demo is now complete -- the programming side of things, at least. I'm waiting on someone to complete some art assets so it looks presentable. I want to attract some capable individuals with the tech demo, so it can't look half-assed.

This has gone off-topic, though. It's bordering on a threadjack.

[Erich]

It isn't really that off topic; he did indeed say in his original post that this is more then fragment. We don't know to what extent he is wanting to do; minimal rewriting of fragment, or indeed making a near-new MMO. This is up for him to decide.

The reason I'm posting this topic early, even though I'm still working on this library, is because I'm searching for someone to step in my footprints, to take this baby all the way in my stead once this library is complete, to make a full The World MMO - based on the simple system of inserting the ps2 game disc into your computer and being able to play.

As what I have interpreted that as, is using the fragment system and making a somewhat-new MMO.

[Coma]

No - This (the MAD) is designed to help others create other The World-based games, using the existing resources. The other topic, created after this one, was made with the aim of reviving fragment. That is, making it possible once again to play fragment online, presumably in English.

Two completely different things. He also specifically says in this thread that he doesn't intend to be the one who creates a game using the MAD. In my interpretation, he abandoned the MAD when he decided to go for reviving fragment (although that might not be the case, the MAD and fragment's revival have little to do with each other).

[Coldbird]

I trust Coldbird and ripping of the graphics should be no problem for his clan. So lets concentrate on the engine.

With hackstract and/or hacpics anyone and their grand-mother can extract the images and textures from the data.bin and data.cvm files from all 7 games. Being in possession of the programs themselves may not be illegal, but the act of using and distributing the files obtained (moreso making a sale or claiming ownership) through the use of programs like this would be. However to prevent any gray margin's with the message board rules, I won't divulge anyone with the links and only say to use those names as a start on Google.

First off... hackpics - while providing a really AWFUL way of extracting data... it's far from complete.
The texture blocks aren't interpreted properly, resulting in broken images of all kinds, nor are the palettes fully interpreted... effectively refusing to load any images that are 16-color-based instead of 256 color based...

For those interested in updating .hack pics... the width and height resolution is stored in the texture block header in form of 2^X and 2^Y values...

So try to search for X and Y in the header... and insert into that formula...

There is also a bitflag in the palette header deciding whether a image is 16 or 256 color based...

Also hackpics is unable to determine which palette goes with which image... making it pretty useless because most CCSF storage files contain multiple images in a single sector...

It's far inferior to the tools I developed, texture ripping wise... but could be upgraded for proper extraction.

To make a long story short, I'm happy to see people showing interest in all the hacking I and other people do.
As I've said before I will be on a hiatus pretty much till the next holidays come in 2 weeks, but I'm coming for a visit every now and then to the forums even if I'm not actively working on this for feedback.

@Coma: Nope - the MAD isn't abandoned. Both projects are actively developed whenever I find time to do so.

[Erich]

Yeah, I did get the part that he isn't himself setting up a true MMO. But; as the main developer and .hacker; he does care enough to find a successor, to find someone to pass on the torch to. Not just drop the ball. But, fragment itself needs to be up to get up for this this to happen. I also feel that fragment itself will be a good meeting and rallying point for us to get some dedicated programmers to make this happen. I myself am spreading the word of Coldbird, that //fragment is becoming a reality, and bringing more followers, hopefully some that can help in MAD and the revival.

Case and point: Both projects go hand in hand. One helps each other. //fragment will have its day. But there will be a point, at which we can construct a real MMO with the help of MAD. (That will help us drift out of the impending legal stuff CC2 can drop on us; a game of its own means CC2 can't do anything.)

I myself... I don't know what I can do for either projects. The most I know I can do (for now) is to spread the word to other potential followers. Hopefully, someday I can get a complete fill in on what I need to know to be of use. For now.. i'm just the messenger-boy.

[Coma]

I really don't think the MAD really has anything at all to do with fragment...

You could complete both projects without even looking the way of the other.

Also, fragment won't help anyone find "dedicated programmers", because it's primarily (maybe completely) low level hacking. A good low level programmer is not necessarily a good high level programmer (which is what you want if you're going to make an even slightly complex game).

I don't know, both seem like ideas designed to fail. fragment will have a small, fragmented (lol) following at best, and the MAD... well, if Coldbird's not gonna develop a game using the MAD, I don't think anyone will. I can't see players swapping discs while playing a MMO.

[Kuukai]

You really wouldn't need to swap discs, most of the content you'd care about would be on the last disc. Honestly though if nothing other than a model viewer comes of this I'd still feel it's worth supporting. Because a model viewer would be awesome.