Philosophy debate of Religion, and Science

[AuraTwilight]

This proves the word of God has been alter.

Yea, so you might as well kick all currently existing Bibles to the curb and pick up the original Hebrew.

Interesting fact about that, by the way. The farther back you go in editions of the Bible, the less and less you see homosexuality be mentioned at ALL. Infact, the word that got translated as "homosexual" is a term Paul made up, but when compared to his other writings seems to refer to the Greek pedastry where adult men had sex with little boys.

IRONIC, HUH?

[Integra]

I thought it said specifically that if a man were to lay with another man, then that man would be considered an abomination. Strange. It said nothing about women though. lol

[shugo_lover]

I thought it said specifically that if a man were to lay with another man, then that man would be considered an abomination. Strange. It said nothing about women though. lol

I always found that interesting how it says nothing about girls.

[S1lentOp]

And then...

But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

[Keyaki]

So we have Timothy saying all those that are wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God and we have Corinthians contradiciting him saying that basically he is a hypocrite as he 's done it himself and that ALL who have wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God?

Trying to understand, is that it?

[S1lentOp]

So we have Timothy saying all those that are wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God and we have Corinthians contradiciting him saying that basically he is a hypocrite as he 's done it himself and that ALL who have wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God?

Trying to understand, is that it?

I have no idea how you got that from either one of those... The point was that there are other examples of the Bible condemning homosexuality that doesn't just specifically address men.

[Kuukai]

Of course, the bible says a lot of things about sexuality that we don't do now. Like allowing polygamy, and that you should take your elder brother's wife if he dies before she bears him an heir. Obviously the part about passing laws against homosexuals in secular countries is written a lot more clearly...

[AuraTwilight]

I thought it said specifically that if a man were to lay with another man, then that man would be considered an abomination. Strange. It said nothing about women though. lol

\

I'm still trying to find the etymology for that line, but fun fact: The laws of Leviticus don't apply to anyone but Jews under the covenant. They were tribal-style laws created for the sake of the Chosen People's prosperity, especially when they were still trying to find Israel. No eating certain things because that stuff's poisoned, no being gay because we need babies, etc. etc.

None of the laws in Leviticus have any applicability to the non-Chosen. Even if it did, well, damn, we're all wearing clothes with mixed fabrics, and most of us love bacon and stuff. And ALL SINS ARE EQUAL, so......yea.

Of course, the bible says a lot of things about sexuality that we don't do now. Like allowing polygamy, and that you should take your elder brother's wife if he dies before she bears him an heir. Obviously the part about passing laws against homosexuals in secular countries is written a lot more clearly...

Not to mention that traditional marriage is between a man and his wife, his other wifes, his concubines, as many lovers as he can support, any girls he raped, and any girls he bought from their fathers.

[marthwmaster]

In what sense is "effeminate" meant in 1 Corinthians 6:10? Because I've often wondered if I'm manly enough by biblical standards.

My current avatar is another vain attempt to butch myself up a bit.

[shugo_lover]

I find it interesting how being gay is up there with the sins of murder and stuff.

Edit: I also thought god was 'Forgiving' so if you appoligize for all your sins you would be saved. Apperently I was wrong >.>

[marthwmaster]

Edit: I also thought god was 'Forgiving' so if you appoligize for all your sins you would be saved. Apperently I was wrong >.>

You're not wrong per se, but apology usually contains a promise that you'll try to change. It's not like, "Dear God, I'm not gonna stop sleeping around and lying and stuff, but I'm sorry. Love, Joe"

[Keyaki]

So we have Timothy saying all those that are wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God and we have Corinthians contradiciting him saying that basically he is a hypocrite as he 's done it himself and that ALL who have wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God?

Trying to understand, is that it?

I have no idea how you got that from either one of those... The point was that there are other examples of the Bible condemning homosexuality that doesn't just specifically address men.

...My bad :/

[Kuukai]

Which is why it's interesting that conservatives are fighting to protect a liberal, feminist, pagan Roman institution that didn't come from the bible.

Anyway, my main point is that even though many people gloss over the parts of the bible about many wives or slaves or the sky being made out of the (flat) ocean thousands of years ago as some sort of fuzzy symbolism not applicable to daily life, their absolutist stance towards other passages of the bible runs contrary to that, somehow superseding even the major messages of the New Testament. You know, treat others how you would have them treat you. Don't lose the moral high ground by pretending you have it. Jesus traveled with a prostitute, he didn't throw her in prison. These are sound ideals even if you're not religious. The other things are just arbitrary.

[AuraTwilight]

As for your question, Marthwmaster, I tried looking it up.

Just like the "homosexuality" word translated to "arsenokeeteh" (male prositutes, pederasty), the word "effeminate" comes from "malakee". It specifically refers to a morally weak person that seeks to live in luxury while refusing to do what is needful to maintain such luxuries. In other words, it bespeaks the idea of laziness and sloth. Such a person is a "leech" or drain on society. This got translated to "effeminate" because according to Middle Ages standards, this is basically ALL WOMEN MIRITE LOL?

So, really, the Bible doesn't really speak out against Homosexuality at all, except for the tribal convenant laws that speak out about it only because the Chosen people were in danger of extinction. What the modern Bible refers to as homosexuality actually refers to male prostitution, male pedophilia (doing little girls was alright back then, if not infact encouraged), and being an asshole basement dweller that doesn't contribute to society.

Hell, King Solomon was said to have 100 male concubines and he was one of the most virtuous men in Biblical history.

The times in which the bible was written didn't even HAVE a word for homosexuality.
They could say 'Bob and Steve had sex' as they could say 'Bob and Mary had sex' but the same words were used. Same gender unions were regarded as normal among the Greeks and same gender affairs and concubines were common. The early Greeks considered same gender sexuality simply part of the greater tapestry of aphrodisia or love making.

Assuming the B'rit Hadashah ("New Covenant") or New Testament was written in Greek as generally believed (i.e. rather than in Hebrew), there would have been no words to even express the concept of "homosexual offenders." Translating Koine Greek words like arsenokeeteh into terms unknown to the language is obviously deceptive and alters their intended meaning.

[zaseo]

What do you think of this? This had some of the Hebrew books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

[Azure Knight]

The times in which the bible was written didn't even HAVE a word for homosexuality.

If I recall correctly, I don't think even nowadays Hebrew has a word for homosexual.

What do you think of this? This had some of the Hebrew books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

Yeah, the Dead Sea Scrolls are, at this point, the closest we're ever going to get to the original wording of the Torah and Haftarah, unless there are even older scrolls out there somewhere sitting under a rock.

[AuraTwilight]

Unfortunately the scrolls are wrecked to Hell and only partially readable. So much for divine inerrancy protecting the unaltered Word of God, right?

[Gemcrim]

In what sense is "effeminate" meant in 1 Corinthians 6:10? Because I've often wondered if I'm manly enough by biblical standards.

My current avatar is another vain attempt to butch myself up a bit.

That Death Egg is so manly ~<3

Much moreso than any silly Ark or Egg Fleet :T

[S1lentOp]

In what sense is "effeminate" meant in 1 Corinthians 6:10? Because I've often wondered if I'm manly enough by biblical standards.

It's talking about sodomy.

[marthwmaster]

In what sense is "effeminate" meant in 1 Corinthians 6:10? Because I've often wondered if I'm manly enough by biblical standards.

It's talking about sodomy.

Nah, I like AT's explanation better. Why take such a roundabout way around mentioning the physical act of sodomy, if that's indeed what it means? My Bible's never been shy about addressing things directly.