Philosophy debate of Religion, and Science

[marthwmaster]

In the Book of Revelation it mentions the sea, or ocean becoming black, and killing life. I can't remember the verse, but I will post it when I find it. Something is up. I figure they would have clean it by now, but damn. There are sharks coming near the coast and, dead, or oily animals washing up on shore. They keep failing with these solutions.

"And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."
- Rev. 8:8-11, KJV

And this is pulled straight from Wikipedia: "A Dictionary of The Holy Bible states, 'the star called Wormwood seems to denote a mighty prince, or power of the air, the instrument, in its fall, of sore judgments on large numbers of the wicked.'"

[Keyaki]

In the Book of Revelation it mentions the sea, or ocean becoming black, and killing life. I can't remember the verse, but I will post it when I find it. Something is up. I figure they would have clean it by now, but damn. There are sharks coming near the coast and, dead, or oily animals washing up on shore. They keep failing with these solutions.

It's not the first time an oil spill happened. Other oil wells have exploded, sank and spread oil into the water for years now. And aquatic animals were killed but a lot were saved as well. There is nothing relating this latest epic failure of the epic douchebag asshole of the BP CEO and the Bible.

Stupid corporate jackasses dicking around at everyone else's expense while they drag their ass on fixing the problem because it's very easy to solve

It is? How so?

[marthwmaster]

It's not the first time an oil spill happened. Other oil wells have exploded, sank and spread oil into the water for years now. And aquatic animals were killed but a lot were saved as well. There is nothing relating this latest epic failure of the epic douchebag asshole of the BP CEO and the Bible.

I agree, but mostly because I prefer a literal interpretation of this particular passage, where a celestial object, most likely a meteorite ("and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea") literally falls into the sea and pollutes the water. Whether the person who first spots the rock decides to name it after a Calvin & Hobbes character, we'll have to wait and see. ^^

[Keyaki]

I know what you mean. I was referring to Zaseo's comment.

[S1lentOp]

The Deepwater oil spill is not a biblical event. Not only have you demonstrated that you have no knowledge of the past but also that you can't even read your own religious scriptures. If a major oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico is a sign of the end of the world then I guess this one's a little late to the party since it's been 30 years since the last time it happened

[zaseo]

Things will have to get much worse first before I considered it a sign, or anything. It seems the first tropical depression has formed. If it gets more powerful (reaching hurricane status, and go north ah damn it. Edit It seems it won't had directly north so that is good news. It likely to go though Mexico, and reform into a tropical storm.

[Altre]

Wow, I read the first 7 pages of this only to realize that there were way too many pages before I'd get fully caught up.

About the oil spill-it sucks, as far as I know, I can't do anything about it. And I live in Florida.

I'm not sure if anyone solved "religion" in the pages after I skipped ahead, but I love talking about religion and science. Problem is, not too many people like to hear me talk about religion. In fact, a few of them tend to think I'm trying to force some radical anti-their-beliefs conversation on them. We haven't gone off the topic so far that I'm out of the loop have we?

[marthwmaster]

I'm not sure if anyone solved "religion" in the pages after I skipped ahead, but I love talking about religion and science. Problem is, not too many people like to hear me talk about religion. In fact, a few of them tend to think I'm trying to force some radical anti-their-beliefs conversation on them. We haven't gone off the topic so far that I'm out of the loop have we?

I think you're safe. Go ahead with what you were going to say.

[AuraTwilight]

In the Book of Revelation it mentions the sea, or ocean becoming black, and killing life. I can't remember the verse, but I will post it when I find it. Something is up. I figure they would have clean it by now, but damn. There are sharks coming near the coast and, dead, or oily animals washing up on shore. They keep failing with these solutions.

Way to prove you've never actually read the Bible.

As far as the homo/bi trend thing it is maybe just me. At school I was noticing a alarm rate of homo/bis. The guys with the skinny jeans doesn't seem right. Never wore because I rather have my crotch breathe. The guy with the pants below the waist thing makes thing do you want to be violated.

Let me put it this way.

There is this thing called fashion. Baggy jeans are no longer fashionable. Tight jeans are. You know why? Because it leaves nothing left to the imagination. Girls and guys can see the other's curves and grooves and relevant bulges. It has nothing to do with homosexuality, it's just people trying to look sexy.

It is? How so?

It's easy: Destroy the well. But they're not going to; they're just trying to cap it so they can keep drawing oil from it.

[Altre]

I haven't read anything dealing with any religion in a few years (including the Bible, wickan texts, Buddhist texts), but from what I can remember of the texts, I've formulated my lifestyle around them in what I see as a technical way of living.

So, the basics of my philosophies and thoughts are:
1. Science is applicable to everything to prove or disprove it. Things that I have learned from science classes aren't a solid basis for my knowledge-I go beyond the classroom for knowledge. I apply this to everyday things.

2. M Theory and String Theory are the closest things to plausible that I've seen and they make sense. They apply to religion as well.

3. Some parts of religious texts having been altered over the years seems logical. In the same way that an author would edit their book in the process of creation while no one can read it, while many people in previous "ages" weren't literate, figureheads could have "edited" their religious texts to their liking in the same way and we have those texts today. Therefore, I'm open to accepting parts of religious text and completely refute other parts. If science can't currently explain it, I call ****.

4. Whatever god that may come from whatever religion, to me, can be defined as the energy that currently runs existence. This means that when in Christianity it is said that God is omnipresent, I ask: What is really omnipresent in our (and other) universe? The answer: energy. Therefore, I could call energy God and God energy. In this way, "God" technically is omnipresent and omnipotent. This also means that I don't see got as a humanoid being or something that is one being in general. It means that God and energy are also interchangeable in my vocabulary.

5. Good and evil are human creations. Other animals don't seem to give a **** about killing another animal, but they don't do it with malice, they do it out of instinct. In the same way, "God" is neither good or evil. Things have been set in motion to happen since this universe came into existence: our solar system just happened to develop the right way to create an order of planets revolving around a star and have a plethora of organisms develop on one of the planets. (Note: there is a study in motion that details how sentient life got here in the first place that caught my interest-it says that while the Earth was settling, some celestial body came in contact with the planet that happened to carry amino acids and other components for life. From there, under the conditions of the Earth at the time, they pieced together at some point and made the first Earthly organisms. Essentially, this means that the first organisms were chemically sentient-they could perform basic actions to create more of themselves, but didn't really do much else other than survive in this way.)

6. People are machines and computers. No, not like the **** that we build cars with and not like Terminator. We are organic machines/computers. So like the machines that we do build, we need certain parts to work and some parts we don't need. We get tune-ups, we malfunction, we have specific purposes based on our chemical and physical build, and we, as collective organisms, have a specific goal. Our goal as collective organisms is to do like any other: adapt and survive to the point that we either can't anymore or that we don't need to. With this in mind, it's kind of easy to ignore my human wants and urges. If I get hurt, as long as I can tell it won't lead to my death if pushed, I can somewhat ignore it (but everyone can get sensory overload by pain). If some chick wants to date me, depending on how long I've known her and how well I assume she knows me (basically are her motives physically urged or do they have solid grounding), I'll say yes or make up some lame excuse. This may be a bad example, but at one of the schools I had gone to in middle school, I was approached by a small group of giggling girls. One had asked if I would "go out" with her friend....without even looking, I said no. I had been there one day, why would I? They called me an ass and walked off. So, other than my girl stories, that's one aspect of my life, a very important one at that.

There's more to it, but I kind of want to get to modding Oblivion more, but that's a good chunk of my insight. Problem is, not to many people see these aspects of me as being too amicable. But, I can create a persona on the go (which is why I like theater and acting) for meeting new people.

[marthwmaster]

5. Good and evil are human creations. Other animals don't seem to give a **** about killing another animal, but they don't do it with malice, they do it out of instinct. In the same way, "God" is neither good or evil.

I would agree with this, but. If animals kill out of instinct and are unable to comprehend good and evil, why are we as humans any different? To put this another way, why can you defend an animal's homicidal activity as instinct and devoid of malice, but not a human's?

[Altre]

I guess I didn't make it clear: we are animals, but, we have higher cognitive abilities. When a human kills though, it CAN be out of malice due to us having developed more complex emotions. Humans have a little more meta game than other animals in that we do things that have nothing to do our original goal as organisms. People go "hunting" (aka shopping) for things they don't need. I think that was a part of all of this: humans want. I'm not sure if too many other creatures go past the normal boundaries (or at least animals we haven't domesticated) of their needs (lazy cats, they're still cute).

The problem with this is it can lead to a destructive course for our race. When enough humans stop "just needing" things, we start consuming in excess. I learned a little while back in Economics that many people expect certain resources to completely burn out or be used up someday. Example: gas companies can create big excuses as to why they need to jack up their prices. They WANT money. People WANT gas. People will get it regardless of the price. Some people don't understand that as gas company is composed of people too. Problem is, we don't have unlimited amounts of money to spend (even the individuals in the companies), but we DO have money to spend. There's a saying for this: We choose our greed. Meaning if you buy things in excess, those things are your greed and weaken, statistically, the integrity of our resources (greed is being used in indifference).

Anyway, the point is we do **** that other animals can't even think about. But what we do isn't evil or good. It's either beneficial to us or harmful in some way, though maybe not in a significant way. But we can kill instinctively, maybe in defense. Or maybe if you got lost in the wilderness...

[zaseo]

AT Just because I misinterpret, or make errors doesn't mean I don't any take time to read the bible. I rather find things out myself right now, because I don't trust many churches today. I did use "possibly bible related". I think the situation is likely worse than the media say because they don't want people to panic to fast. If a major disaster where to occur would the media tell people asap? Likely no due to major riots breaking out.

One thing I wish to obtain before I die is the "Seal of God". From how I see it is something likely not physically showing someone is a follower of God who seek, and obtain the truth. If we're here when the "Winds" are let loose then I shall be prepared to die.

Us humans are some of the most intellectual animals on the planet. We want to live well most of us do most of the time. Many will try to do whatever it takes to survive.

[AuraTwilight]

4. Whatever god that may come from whatever religion, to me, can be defined as the energy that currently runs existence. This means that when in Christianity it is said that God is omnipresent, I ask: What is really omnipresent in our (and other) universe? The answer: energy. Therefore, I could call energy God and God energy. In this way, "God" technically is omnipresent and omnipotent. This also means that I don't see got as a humanoid being or something that is one being in general. It means that God and energy are also interchangeable in my vocabulary.

You're basically describing a form of pantheism, right?

I'm not sure you can say that energy is omnipresent and omnipotent though. Energy doesn't really do EVERYTHING in an omnipotent sense, and it's not truly omnipresent, since there exist void energy vacuums in our universe. Really, you're just gutting out everything associated with the word "God" and making it into a naturalistic phenomenon. This is intellectually void of meaning.

[marthwmaster]

Therefore, I'm open to accepting parts of religious text and completely refute other parts. If science can't currently explain it, I call ****.

I think the idea of not taking the Bible literally can and is taken too far sometimes. When it gets to the point where you are deciding for yourself what can and can't be trusted about the Bible, IMO you've lost the most precious thing about the book. There is plenty of meaningful advice out in the world that doesn't have miracles and such tied up in it, and if you're going to Jeffersonize the Bible into something dry and devoid of any spiritual meaning anyway, I would recommend seeking such advice instead.

I believe that reading the Bible with an open mind is the best thing, because the Lord will guide you to understanding and believing in its truth. Do I think that the Bible has been changed over the years? Yes. But God is God, and His power is ultimately greater than that of the people who have altered His book, and trusting in that is the only way to get any true sustenance from the Bible.

[Keyaki]

Therefore, I'm open to accepting parts of religious text and completely refute other parts. If science can't currently explain it, I call ****.

I think the idea of not taking the Bible literally can and is taken too far sometimes. When it gets to the point where you are deciding for yourself what can and can't be trusted about the Bible, IMO you've lost the most precious thing about the book. There is plenty of meaningful advice out in the world that doesn't have miracles and such tied up in it, and if you're going to Jeffersonize the Bible into something dry and devoid of any spiritual meaning anyway, I would recommend seeking such advice instead.

I believe that reading the Bible with an open mind is the best thing, because the Lord will guide you to understanding and believing in its truth. Do I think that the Bible has been changed over the years? Yes. But God is God, and His power is ultimately greater than that of the people who have altered His book, and trusting in that is the only way to get any true sustenance from the Bible.

Makes me wonder, does the term 'Zealot' fit into that category?

[marthwmaster]

Fit into what category?

Of course, people with an agenda can abuse any religious idea to suit their purposes. Al-Qaeda is an obvious example, but the same is true for any religion including Christianity. But no, I don't think that having faith and being able to trust in the Bible automatically makes you a religious fanatic or an extremist.

OT: My life for Aiur!!

[Altre]

4. Whatever god that may come from whatever religion, to me, can be defined as the energy that currently runs existence. This means that when in Christianity it is said that God is omnipresent, I ask: What is really omnipresent in our (and other) universe? The answer: energy. Therefore, I could call energy God and God energy. In this way, "God" technically is omnipresent and omnipotent. This also means that I don't see got as a humanoid being or something that is one being in general. It means that God and energy are also interchangeable in my vocabulary.

You're basically describing a form of pantheism, right?

I'm not sure you can say that energy is omnipresent and omnipotent though. Energy doesn't really do EVERYTHING in an omnipotent sense, and it's not truly omnipresent, since there exist void energy vacuums in our universe. Really, you're just gutting out everything associated with the word "God" and making it into a naturalistic phenomenon. This is intellectually void of meaning.

I think I kind of jammed a bit of pantheism, Christianity, and parts of my logic into my, I guess, personal religion.

Omnipresent and omnipotent in an Earthly way (through association, I've come to the conclusion that it makes sense for God to not be a single being, that idea will never change, unless I meet "it"). If atoms didn't bond through electromagnetic force, we and life as we know it would not exist. Also, if the kinetic energy that shifts through the Earths crust to create tsunamis isn't all powerful (compared to humans, we stand no chance of surviving if we faced one head on....), then I don't know what is. These things simply explained by science seem to have the same qualities as God described in the Bible.

In case you're wondering or speculating, "God" still has a spiritual meaning to me. I am composed of matter bound by electromagnetism, therefore I call that energy my "soul". My brain wouldn't work without those short electric bursts going through my synapses, sentience by the miracle of science (which I would also call the product of God, aka energy).

Wasn't there text in the Bible that stated God breaths life into us through his own life force (or something of that caliber)?

I wasn't close minded when I went through chapters in church groups years ago. I'm not close minded now. When I say some parts are bs (wrong phasing), I mean that some of the parts don't seem plausible. I'm NOT talking about people being miraculously healed or walking on water and whatnot. No doubt, there's some part of my mind I don't have access to that would allow me to utilize energy and matter in this way. I believe that if Jesus did the things said, he must have had access to something in himself that I don't.

I do believe that some parts are exaggerated for effect. Until it's proven that some of the things described could possibly happen or if I feel that there are some means to have these things happen that I just cannot do, I don't see a logical reason why to give 100% trust to the idea. But that doesn't mean that I ever 100% think that something couldn't happen. There are infinite possibilities for events in life we could not possibly process. That doesn't mean that we can't process anything, it just means that within our collective span as a race, we won't become perfect libraries of unlimited knowledge.

I don't mean to be offensive to anyone, remember these are my beliefs. Don't criticize mine and I won't criticize yours. By all means, believe in what you will. By my definition of God, I feel that many people of different religions deserve a happy and fruitful life as long as they don't abuse their religion and us it as an excuse to get away with heinous acts (someone close and personal has done this to me my whole life, which is why I set out on my journey to find a deeper meaning in religion, I don't want to fill that persons shoes).

[Keyaki]

Fit into what category?

Of course, people with an agenda can abuse any religious idea to suit their purposes. Al-Qaeda is an obvious example, but the same is true for any religion including Christianity. But no, I don't think that having faith and being able to trust in the Bible automatically makes you a religious fanatic or an extremist.

OT: My life for Aiur!!

I guess I meant, in the reverse of your previous post of not taking the Bible too literally. Would per say, taking the Bible too literally mean zealotry?

[Altre]

I guess I meant, in the reverse of your previous post of not taking the Bible too literally. Would per say, taking the Bible too literally mean zealotry?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/zealot

zeal·ot (zlt)
n.
1.
a. One who is zealous, especially excessively so.
b. A fanatically committed person.
2. Zealot A member of a Jewish movement of the first century a.d. that fought against Roman rule in Palestine as incompatible with strict monotheism.

That help?