Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

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Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by GyppyGirl2021 » Tue May 25, 2010 1:50 am

The endgame scene with Saika visiting Jyotaro in the hospital (or something like that). Is Jyotaro dead or alive?

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by GyppyGirl2021 » Tue May 25, 2010 10:14 am

Actually, that's what I was thinking as well.

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by AuraTwilight » Tue May 25, 2010 12:02 pm

Of course, whether he has a working mind or not is a different question.

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by GyppyGirl2021 » Tue May 25, 2010 1:26 pm

Yes, but that wasn't the question. I was asking if he was alive. :P

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by Kuukai » Tue May 25, 2010 3:32 pm

Yes, he's alive, and he might be able to recover. His entire being there is some sort of crazy miracle resulting from Aura being fixed, since due to the terminal stage of Outer Dependency Syndrome he had completely lost pattern cohesion and basically died in the game. It kinda sucks, of the five entwined destinies (Jyotaro, Saika, Geist, AIKA, and Tokio) it seems all the humans got it a lot easier than the AIs...

Amagi, Schicksal, and possibly Harald all once sought out real-digitalization as a means to help mankind. Amagi rejected the notion that life's value comes from the fact it's temporary, he believed conversely that because it is valuable it should be protected forever. He discovered that there was a specific frequency of light that could in turn transform matter into light. This could all be transmitted and received as data from any device with a wireless radio. All mankind could be transformed into data and live in a digital world without hunger, disease, or aging. But as Fluegel explained, things don't ever work out that well. The person who invented arrows supposedly claimed they would end war forever, and we all know how well that turned out. In a sense, humans themselves are a wad of bugs, they have no business being in a computer. The virtual space is in fact a very harsh environment for humans, the human mind can't survive being "naked" in it for a prolonged period of time. The first symptom is an irregularity in brainwaves, which gradually develops into a catatonic state and finally total collapse, where the victim dissimilates into something that's no longer human, before ultimately diffusing across the virtual space.

There are other symptoms. Fluegel hints that Tokio's ability to see memories might not be a "power" but in fact a symptom of Outer Dependency Syndrome. Even darker (and I was hoping for this from the very beginning), Tokio has no sense of time and has no idea how long he's been inside the game.

Fluegel believes that Schicksal PCs, which are deeply connected to their user on about the same level as anything else we've seen up till this point (killing one causes a coma), are probably the limit to how far humans can safely enter the virtual space. They were developed as part of his medical research into real-digitalization.

Okay, that's pretty much everything anyone would ever want to know about Outer Dependency Syndrome, when I have time I'll try to answer more of the questions in the main spoiler thread...

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by AuraTwilight » Wed May 26, 2010 12:47 pm

Once again, you make //Link sound almost not ball-f*ck retarded. What does the Doubleware thing have to do with all this, because I didn't get that part at all.

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by Kuukai » Wed May 26, 2010 5:16 pm

A doubleware is a kind of human well-suited to real-digitalization. They synchronize well with data around them, including PCs, absorb memories (after reading more this apparently isn't part of Outer Dependency Syndrome, just something Fluegel wanted to confirm), and have various other abilities. These abilities were essential in Geist's plan to open Aura's barrier and gain access to her.

With Amagi's original technology, this is the only kind of human he has any success with. With the "Immortal Dusk," he sought to bypass that using Aura and digitalize every human in wireless range of every P-COM. Unfortunately, by the time Geist completes his work, it's already readily apparently to anyone who isn't a narrowly-focused AI that due to Outer Dependency Syndrome this is a horrible idea that will lead to the extinction of mankind. That part doesn't seem to be something Aura could fix, even if Geist and Amagi had realized it was a problem beforehand, because it's due to the nature of human beings themselves. When I get the chance I'm planning a post explaining Immortal Dusk and Aura to try to clear up any misunderstandings about that...

Interestingly enough, aside from Amagi and Tokio, there's one other success recorded all the way back around the fragment era. It's not entirely clear whether or not this is Lara. It might be Harald, even though there are a few differences his condition in the anime could be explained by Outer Dependency Syndrome + being unwittingly copied from server to server. At any rate, Amagi never quite succeeded in beating Harald at any given thing. He's his Edison.

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by AuraTwilight » Thu May 27, 2010 1:15 pm

That part doesn't seem to be something Aura could fix, even if Geist and Amagi had realized it was a problem beforehand, because it's due to the nature of human beings themselves.
I really wish we knew why this was the case, because it's a real kick to the balls for any transhumanist fans of the series like myself (so I still have room for a bit of hate--HUZZAH)

What are the implications for people who were only pulled in by the mind, such as Tsukasa and the other coma victims, or the whole AIDA server fiasco in Reminisce? I suspect some variation of Outer Dependency Syndrome could be responsible for the reported memory losses, and the general FUBAR that is Tsukasa's psyche (though he did hold up extremely well. Could his possibility of possessing Doubleware, or something like it, be one of her criteria for having chosen him, on top of the whole "emo git" thing?)

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by Kuukai » Thu May 27, 2010 2:29 pm

That's my interpretation, I guess there's still a possibility that she could have done it, but obviously they still wanted to stop her, just per the basic principle that trapping people inside a videogame against their will and leaving the fate of humanity up to a crazy AI following a course planned by a different crazy AI is generally a bad idea. It's up for guessing. She put Amagi back together, but he isn't in great shape, and there would be billions of that...

Really, the only thing I've seen the game that's remotely upsetting to me is still really ambiguous and still has plenty of room for explanation. There's a voice in the 2024 trailer that sounds like Pi, talking to Genius's friend. This makes a lot of sense if she's working with Genius, but in Link her reason for working with Genius in 2017 is to prevent changes to the timeline that might affect Yata. In other words, if she wasn't just BSing, she never had a motive to work with him in the real timeline. So why is she talking to that guy? Of course, all this is about something that isn't even out yet, it might not even be her, and I can still think of a few explanations (I always found it interesting how "The Avenger" just randomly fell in love with some kid instead of avenging her brother), but that's something that's been bugging me. It's interesting though because this means all of Trilogy could have just been an alternate timeline formed at some point... And what the hell is canon in a game where non-canon can affect the future? Then again they might be toying with the idea that the timeline is more than just data...

Nah, I think that's totally different. It looks like anyone can enter the game that way. The Schicksal PCs operate on a similar concept. Outer Dependency Syndrome affects "raw" humans. A human mind crossed-over through a PC body may be "shielded" from the digital environment. But they still have bodies, they're still subject to disease and malnutrition and the hazards of their native environment, so probably it's a one-or-the-other sort of deal...

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by |<!73 » Thu May 27, 2010 4:41 pm

Hmm. I was wondering aside from the story is Amagi's recovery (don't know if he actually does) be based on Geist's destruction? I know its not mentioned but I was thinking, Jyotaro loses his mind and what structures it but what about the near perfect copy of himself about 3 feet away?

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by Kuukai » Thu May 27, 2010 5:52 pm

I don't think so. He's not Midori. Outer Dependency Syndrome and Geist are unrelated. Geist wasn't that perfect, either, or he probably would have realized the problem...

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by AuraTwilight » Fri May 28, 2010 1:52 pm

That's my interpretation, I guess there's still a possibility that she could have done it, but obviously they still wanted to stop her, just per the basic principle that trapping people inside a videogame against their will and leaving the fate of humanity up to a crazy AI following a course planned by a different crazy AI is generally a bad idea. It's up for guessing. She put Amagi back together, but he isn't in great shape, and there would be billions of that...
Oh pssh, Rei Ayanami did it just fine. Quit being lazy, Aura.
Really, the only thing I've seen the game that's remotely upsetting to me is still really ambiguous and still has plenty of room for explanation. There's a voice in the 2024 trailer that sounds like Pi, talking to Genius's friend. This makes a lot of sense if she's working with Genius, but in Link her reason for working with Genius in 2017 is to prevent changes to the timeline that might affect Yata. In other words, if she wasn't just BSing, she never had a motive to work with him in the real timeline. So why is she talking to that guy? Of course, all this is about something that isn't even out yet, it might not even be her, and I can still think of a few explanations (I always found it interesting how "The Avenger" just randomly fell in love with some kid instead of avenging her brother), but that's something that's been bugging me. It's interesting though because this means all of Trilogy could have just been an alternate timeline formed at some point... And what the hell is canon in a game where non-canon can affect the future? Then again they might be toying with the idea that the timeline is more than just data...
I have to say, I DO really like the idea that all "non-canon" works are just alternate timelines during Link.
Nah, I think that's totally different. It looks like anyone can enter the game that way. The Schicksal PCs operate on a similar concept. Outer Dependency Syndrome affects "raw" humans. A human mind crossed-over through a PC body may be "shielded" from the digital environment. But they still have bodies, they're still subject to disease and malnutrition and the hazards of their native environment, so probably it's a one-or-the-other sort of deal...
This is what I reasoned. "Guys, the problem is that the ego is naked. No AT Fierudo. Get Dr. Akagi to establish the ego borders and have the MAGI construct digital bodies and ****."

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by Kuukai » Fri May 28, 2010 3:27 pm

Except the G.U. Novels. It would be hard to make Ovan Aina's dad. AIDA-Monsters show up, though.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty similar too. They even used the word ego.

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by AuraTwilight » Sat May 29, 2010 2:59 pm

Pfft. Making Aina Ovan's daughter is easy enough with quantum. Especially since these timelines aren't actually objective realities like the ACTUAL past, but are corrupted memories being played out by artificial intelligence and shizzle.

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by Kuukai » Sat May 29, 2010 6:21 pm

No quantum. Tokio isn't Scott Bakula. I think it would be hard for the Akashic Records to affect something that happened before the game existed. And it seems to be more than just AIs "acting out" from whatever distortions are introduced. I think the Akashic Records are deeper than that. It's a coherent reality, the characters all have offline lives, they all have futures and pasts. It probably knows more about all the past players of The World than they know about themselves. It's mystical like that, just on the edge of remotely explicable. Aura summoned the Twilight Knights from the Akashic Records, but unlike the Azure Knights she has no power over them. They're just one step down from real. Again, it almost seems like CC2 wanted it to be real time travel, but stopped short because that just didn't fit.

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by |<!73 » Sat May 29, 2010 9:52 pm

Legal guardian? (Data incorrection, maybe at some time Indou falsified a state record? or maybe the dad used the account. Ah well they got the weapon down) Hmm about link play, could you explain follow point and "buriguido" (couldn't find the english word so I had no idea) memeber? I've been trying to increase my rank but I' don't understand what the explaination for follow point states.

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by Kuukai » Sat May 29, 2010 10:51 pm

I haven't really played it, just one time to get a feel for it. I need to get my friend to start Link so I have someone to help the bosses not take so much extra time...

A "Brigade" is a lot like it is in the rest of .hack, a small group of 2 to 6 players. I'm pretty sure for the mostpart your rank works like it does normally. Other than that, I haven't focused enough attention on it to know. You'd think it would be the first thing with an faq, though...

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by AuraTwilight » Sun May 30, 2010 12:57 pm

No quantum. Tokio isn't Scott Bakula. I think it would be hard for the Akashic Records to affect something that happened before the game existed.
It's easy. It'd effectively be the equivalent of Aura's memory-slipping psyche going "...Um, how were those two related again? He was her...daughter or something?"
And it seems to be more than just AIs "acting out" from whatever distortions are introduced. I think the Akashic Records are deeper than that. It's a coherent reality, the characters all have offline lives, they all have futures and pasts. It probably knows more about all the past players of The World than they know about themselves.
Well, yea, The World is a mind-reader. Just because they testify details of an offline life doesn't really mean they do, though. It wouldn't be the first time an Artificial Intelligence could log in and out and say they were offline.
It's mystical like that, just on the edge of remotely explicable. Aura summoned the Twilight Knights from the Akashic Records, but unlike the Azure Knights she has no power over them. They're just one step down from real.
To be fair, the Twilight Knights are the distilled personalities and essences of who those characters were. Not zombies.

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by plesi42 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:13 am

AuraTwilight wrote:
Kuukai wrote:That part doesn't seem to be something Aura could fix, even if Geist and Amagi had realized it was a problem beforehand, because it's due to the nature of human beings themselves.
I really wish we knew why this was the case, because it's a real kick to the balls for any transhumanist fans of the series like myself (so I still have room for a bit of hate--HUZZAH)
Kuukai wrote:That's my interpretation, I guess there's still a possibility that she could have done it, but obviously they still wanted to stop her, just per the basic principle that trapping people inside a videogame against their will and leaving the fate of humanity up to a crazy AI following a course planned by a different crazy AI is generally a bad idea. It's up for guessing. She put Amagi back together, but he isn't in great shape, and there would be billions of that...
JC Denton disagrees:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBeoreJr4Yc&fmt=18
AuraTwilight wrote:Oh pssh, Rei Ayanami did it just fine. Quit being lazy, Aura.
True, Rei did it, but Shinji also rejected instrumentality...

Regarding .hack, it's kind of funny that a series about "people in the net" ended up having that kind of message, but it's understandable given the context.

PD: Also, lots of things about Link remind me of Serial Experiments Lain now (which is a good thing), for example:
http://sel.wikia.com/wiki/Masami_Eiri

Also Aura and Lain, the real-digitalization, etc...

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Re: Really stupid question... (SPOILERS)

Post by Keyaki » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:50 am

Okay, my turn for questions.
due to the terminal stage of Outer Dependency Syndrome he had completely lost pattern cohesion and basically died in the game. It kinda sucks, of the five entwined destinies (Jyotaro, Saika, Geist, AIKA, and Tokio) it seems all the humans got it a lot easier than the AIs...
Did Amagi get ODS after the RA Plan Failure?
possibly Harald all once sought out real-digitalization as a means to help mankind.
I'm not sure about that....Harald was only interested in the Anthroposophical idea of a stronger relationship between AI and humans, through Aura. I'm not sure Harald had any interesting in the idea Real-Digitalization...
The virtual space is in fact a very harsh environment for humans, the human mind can't survive being "naked" in it for a prolonged period of time.
That's b/c its basically dumping the raw human mind into a very chaotic enviroment that it's unable to withstand with no kind of protection, right ?
Fluegel believes that Schicksal PCs, which are deeply connected to their user on about the same level as anything else we've seen up till this point (killing one causes a coma), are probably the limit to how far humans can safely enter the virtual space. They were developed as part of his medical research into real-digitalization.
With that, you think it's possible to Real Digilization BUT you have to be in form of a PC to protect the human mind?

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